Is Arkencounter the Largest Timber-frame Structure in the US? Nope!

Posted 8 July 2016 by Dave Thomas

On checking out the specs for Ken Ham's replica of Noah's Ark, I came across this claim on the About Page:

The Ark Encounter, opening phase one on July 7, 2016, is a one-of-a-kind, historically themed attraction. In an entertaining, educational, and immersive way, it presents a number of historical events centered on Noah's Ark as recorded in the Bible. As the largest timber-frame structure in the US, the 510-foot-long full-size Ark is designed to be family-oriented, historically authentic, and environmentally friendly.

Well, that claim is just plain false. We New Mexicans get the chance to see an even larger timber-framed structure, visible from aircraft close to the Albuquerque International Airport.That 600-foot-long-plus structure is called ATLAS-I, also known as the TRESTLE. It is made entirely of wood - even the bolts are wooden or dielectric. Its purpose was to support large airplanes under strong antennae used to simulate ElectroMagnetic Pulses (EMP), strong radio impulses produced by nuclear weapon explosions. Since any metal supports would have affected these types of tests, the wooden platform allowed even very large aircraft to be suspended high above ground, and immersed in strong fields, just as if they were in the open air. Electromagnetically speaking, they were in the open air. Here are some pictures of the TRESTLE, to illustrate its vast size. This is a Boeing B-52 strategic bomber being prepared for EMP testing at Trestle in 1982 (link).

This is a Rockwell B-1B Bomber being tested.

Here are the specifications of the TRESTLE.

This is Google Map's satellite view of the TRESTLE (35.025281 N, 106.562284 W). Conveniently, there's a 100-foot scale marker.

In this satellite view, a structure the size of Ham's Ark (300 cubits long by 30 cubits tall by 50 cubits wide, or about 510ft x 50ft x 85ft) is superimposed on the TRESTLE. It fits! The TRESTLE is clearly larger,

To show how it would look if the ark were being tested for EMP, I whipped up this animation using a little python app I've been working on. The ark is in green, and the TRESTLE is in white (this version is 125 feet tall, 10 feet longer than actual (115 ft.); the 400-ft-long, 50-ft-wide "ramp" in the animation is a uniform 125 feet tall, unlike the actual ramp, which is tapered, from 12 feet above ground to 115 ft at the working volume.

So, is Ken Ham's ark "the largest timber-frame structure in the US"? Nope. TRESTLE is Bigger.

30 Comments

TomS · 8 July 2016

Tillamook Air Museum is an aviation museum south of Tillamook, Oregon, at Tillamook Airport in the United States. The museum is housed in a former US Navy blimp hangar, called "Hangar B", which is the largest clear-span wooden structure in the world.[1] Constructed by the US Navy in 1942 during World War II for Naval Air Station Tillamook, the hangar building housing the aircraft is 1,072 feet (327 m) long and 296 feet (90 m) wide, giving it over 7 acres (2.8 ha) of area. It stands at 192 feet (59 m) tall.

Wikipedia, "Tillamook Air Museum"

Kevin Klein · 8 July 2016

There must be several dozen wooden roller coasters that are larger than that silly ark.

fnxtr · 8 July 2016

Wait, what? Ken Ham said something counterfactual? Stop the presses!

https://me.yahoo.com/a/yCTZpzcvy5VbV7c0LbBGC2F26tKI#9a762 · 8 July 2016

I think the argument about size is off-topic ... what I want to know is "Is it seaworthy?"

Kevin B · 8 July 2016

https://me.yahoo.com/a/yCTZpzcvy5VbV7c0LbBGC2F26tKI#9a762 said: I think the argument about size is off-topic ... what I want to know is "Is it seaworthy?"

Depends on the sea. It could probably handle the waves and weather on the Mare Tranquillitatis.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 8 July 2016

Poor trees at the Arkencounter.

They died to increase ignorance.

Glen Davidson

Ken Phelps · 8 July 2016

I would expect its seaworthiness matches that of every other Not-Even-Remotely-Like-A-F**king-Boat structure in Kentucky.

JimboK · 8 July 2016

Hey! But what about the OTHER "Ark"?

Oh, wait; It crashed in Oslo harbor! http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/world/europe/replica-of-noahs-ark-is-damaged-in-oslo-harbor-collision.html

HAH!

JimboK · 8 July 2016

If you peruse the construction images on the ArkEncounter website, one finds that this "Ark" is completely supported by concrete pillars, and has a base consisting of a concrete floor upon which the center 2/3 rds of the timbered structure is built. This central portion of the "Ark" is also buttressed in the rear to its full height by concrete & cinder block towers. It, therefore, is really only 1/2 a wooden "boat", and possesses no true keel from bow to stern.

It is a pack of lies to say this fraud is: 1) A "timber-frame" structure (let alone "the world's largest"); 2) A "full-scale replica of the Biblical Ark"; and 3) That this monstrosity was constructed "in accordance with sound established nautical engineering practices of the era".

Scott F · 8 July 2016

From Wiki:

Traditional timber framing is the method of creating structures using heavy squared-off and carefully fitted and joined timbers with joints secured by large wooden pegs (larger versions of the mortise and tenon joints in furniture).

You also don't find much metal here: http://timberframehq.com/construction-details/joints/ Given that the majority of the framing of the Ark Park is joined by steel plates, I'm not sure it even counts as "timber-framed". But maybe I'm being too picky.

stevaroni · 8 July 2016

TomS said: Tillamook Air Museum is an aviation museum south of Tillamook, Oregon, at Tillamook Airport in the United States. The museum is housed in a former US Navy blimp hangar, called "Hangar B", which is the largest clear-span wooden structure in the world.[1]

I was in that museum, and it is mind-boggling. You can see the building for miles, as soon as you crest one of the surrounding hills and can see into the valley south of Tillamook. You keep driving towards it and it keeps getting bigger. The "museum" part of the hangar is a couple of hundred feet deep at the front, the rest of the hangar is roped off and recedes into the darkness for another three football fields or so. The museum tells the story of the blimp corps, which undertook long-duration patrols of the important shipping areas during WW-II. In the era before AWACS planes, a couple of guys floating up and down the coast with binoculars for a couple of days at time was the best way to spot enemy submarines. The museum also houses a very impressive "loaner" collection of beautifully restored old waterbirds parked there by their owners, largely northwest tech millionaires. The hangar was one of two that were built there in the early days of the war. The second hangar was leased out in the 50's to store lumber and hay. A 1000' long building full with stacks of wood and bales of hay - what could possibly go wrong. It burnt to the ground one night, and only the concrete end abutments remain, looking like some sort of post-industrial Stonehenge. Sadly, my visit was about 10 years ago, and I understand that the museum has been forced to close. The 70 year old roof had gotten to the point that it needed to be replaced and the cost of a new roof the size of a half-dozen football fields was too much for a small museum in an out-of the way spot to fund. Also impressively large places in the area are the Evergreen Aviation museum in the little town of Wilsonville, about an hour southwest of Portland. The Evergreen is the home of Howard Hugh's famous Spruce Goose, and SR71 and a Titan missile. Also a 747 made into a waterpark. The Spruce Goose, the largest wingspan to ever fly is huge on the outside, but surprisingly, it doesn't seem that big on the inside, the space inside is weirdly shaped and feels much less practical than a modern tube. What's somewhat phenomenal is that this museum full of large planes is located in the middle of wine country, serviced by small roads. There is a small municipal airport across the street, but it sure doesn't look like the kind of place you could land a 747 or SR71 at, regardless of how empty is was for a ferry flight Sadly, I understand that the Evergreen museum, too, is in financial trouble because the owners, an opaque "services" company named Evergreen Aviation, has been mired facing bankruptcy after a series of very shady business deals. And lastly, if you're ever up in the Northwest and you still haven't gotten your fill of big buildings, there's the Boeing museum at Everett field. The museum is quite good, but the neat part is that you can visit the Boeing plant next door. They put you in a shuttle bus and you drive among the giant "Dreamlifters" parked outside, and take a tunnel through the plant to an elevator that takes you to a viewing gallery between two assembly lines. It takes you a bit of time to get your perspective because you're quite high, but eventually see people and you realize that those planes are 200 foot-long 777's and 787's and the assembly lines you're overlooking are a couple of thousand feet long. The thought ran through my mind that this is one of the few indoor places on Earth where you could actually use the sentence "Did anyone see my pet elephant? I've misplaced him and don't know where he's gone." *_{yes, I know most of this post has nothing to do with Ark Encounter, but I find it far more plesant to talk about amazing, huge buildings full of things that actually exist}

TomS · 8 July 2016

JimboK said: let alone "the world's largest"

I think that they claim largest in the USA.

Just Bob · 8 July 2016

stevaroni said: Also impressively large places in the area are the Evergreen Aviation museum in the little town of Wilsonville, about an hour southwest of Portland.

Isn't the Evergreen Museum in McMinnville? It is a very nice museum. It's worth the trip just for the H-4. But thinking of big wooden planes... I wonder if Ham, who assures us that old Noah could deploy MUCH more advanced technology than we generally ascribe to that time, has realized that Noah must have had AIRCRAFT! That would solve a lot of those problems about how to round up wombats, vicunas, etc. Hey! And even how to disperse them after the Flood! They knew how to build airplanes, and had the plans, and maybe even had a few crated jet engines as Ark ballast! Gee, thinking like a creationist can be fun!

Dave Luckett · 9 July 2016

As to the seaworthiness of the Ark, we've been there ad nauseum. Short version: the structure Ham built, if it were made entirely of timber and without external buttressing, would not support its own weight. Simply soaking some of its timbers, while others were wetted and then dried again, over and over, would cause differential expansion and contraction that, on the scale of that hull, would pull it apart. A swell of a foot would cause stresses that, leveraged over that hull length, would produce leakage that would founder it, and structural failure within hours - the hull planking would open like a birdcage, the frames would simply part.

Again: no vessel of this size or capacity with wooden major structural members, was ever built. The absolute limit is reached at about two-thirds its length and half its capacity, and that was pushing it. All "wooden" ships of that size, although braced and cross-braced in iron, and with free use of steel bolts, plates and stringers, and fitted with steam pumps, were dangerously unfit for ordinary rough weather at sea.

The Ark simply cannot be real. This is before we get to the questions of how it could possibly have carried the cargo it is said to have carried, or of what that cargo consisted, or how it could have been cared for. And even the reality of the Ark is secondary to the impossibility of the flood.

But we've been all over this.

TomS · 9 July 2016

If anything, what today's people who are building demonstrate the failure of Arkeology as a science. Someone who was serious about it would go about it experimentally. First build a small model and get some knowlege about how wooden vessels work and how to build them.

It is prideful to think that one can, without a learning process, do what Noah did over a hundred years. Or what ordinary humans haven't done over the last thousand years. Starting from scratch, with no experience in shipbuilding.

Henry Skinner · 9 July 2016

JimboK said: Hey! But what about the OTHER "Ark"? Oh, wait; It crashed in Oslo harbor! http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/world/europe/replica-of-noahs-ark-is-damaged-in-oslo-harbor-collision.html HAH!

Hehe. In in 2007 the smaller of the arks built by Mr Huibers sat in Rotterdam's Spoorweghaven, very close to my home. See https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Spoorweghaven.jpg for a picture. Please note the biblically accurate steel barge it sits on.

stevaroni · 9 July 2016

Hehe. In in 2007 the smaller of the arks built by Mr Huibers sat in Rotterdam's Spoorweghaven, very close to my home.

Is that the one that was in a collision a few months ago? IIRC, that one seemed to have a pretty damned big hole in the side after what was described as a "small" collision during a berthing accident. I saw the picture and could only laugh. First, at the fiberglass insulation falling out, then at the fact that a modern ark, pushed around by powered tugs in a controlled environment in clear weather couldn't avoid getting a giant hole in it, but Noah's boat, tossed in the biggest storm ever along with every hundred-foot tree on Earth, was going to be just fine.

stevaroni · 9 July 2016

Opps... sorry, I was skimming the new comments and didn't see the blockquote from JimboK that said, "Why yes, Steve, you dumbass. That was the same ark."

I stand corrected.

Henry Skinner · 9 July 2016

stevaroni said: I saw the picture and could only laugh. First, at the fiberglass insulation falling out, then at the fact that a modern ark, pushed around by powered tugs in a controlled environment in clear weather couldn't avoid getting a giant hole in it, but Noah's boat, tossed in the biggest storm ever along with every hundred-foot tree on Earth, was going to be just fine.

Genesis doesn't mention other naval traffic during the Flood for Noah to collide with. That doesn't mean there wasn't any; I suppose every ship owner at the time tried to stay afloat, presumably with a more sensible cargo on board. There's also the possibility that hundreds of thousands of men were ordered to build an ark, of which only Noah lived to tell the tale. To the fishermen and traders who comfortably sat out the storm, I guess.

Dave Thomas · 9 July 2016

I made an animation of Tillamook Museum (white) enclosing the Ark encounter(green), here.

Rikki_Tikki_Taalik · 10 July 2016

Dave Thomas said: I made an animation of Tillamook Museum (white) enclosing the Ark encounter(green), here.

Nice. Here's a photo of someone flying a plane through it.

alicejohn · 10 July 2016

Ham could simply make a change to his statement. He could say "largest building" but I think the hangar is the largest building and structure. Plus to say the Ark is a building (which it is) would take away from the "illusion" that it is some kind of boat. He could change it to "...largest privately-build structure..." and probably be a factual statement.

But in the end, Ham is used to lying. I doubt of his misstatement bothers him.

TomS · 10 July 2016

alicejohn said: Ham could simply make a change to his statement. He could say "largest building" but I think the hangar is the largest building and structure. Plus to say the Ark is a building (which it is) would take away from the "illusion" that it is some kind of boat. He could change it to "...largest privately-build structure..." and probably be a factual statement. But in the end, Ham is used to lying. I doubt of his misstatement bothers him.

There is no reason that he needs to claim that it is superlatively big. Just think, if he had claimed that it is the biggest mostly wooden boat-shaped building, wouldn't that call attention to it being dissimilar to Noah's Ark? Or that maybe nobody found it possible to build a real replica of Noah's Ark?

JimboK · 10 July 2016

TomS said:
JimboK said: let alone "the world's largest"
I think that they claim largest in the USA.

Go to here and scroll down: https://arkencounter.com/about-the-ark/ You'll find:

A MASSIVE STRUCTURE This marvel of engineering is seven stories tall and is a football field and a half long. It is the largest timber-frame structure in the world, full of world-class exhibits designed to answer your questions about the biblical account of Noahâs Ark.

And:

The Ark Encounter is a one-of-a-kind historically themed attraction in Williamstown, Kentucky. In an entertaining, educational, and immersive way, it presents a number of historical events centered on a full-size, all-wood Ark, which is the largest timber-frame structure in the world.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 10 July 2016

JimboK said:
TomS said:
JimboK said: let alone "the world's largest"
I think that they claim largest in the USA.
Go to here and scroll down: https://arkencounter.com/about-the-ark/ You'll find:
A MASSIVE STRUCTURE This marvel of engineering is seven stories tall and is a football field and a half long. It is the largest timber-frame structure in the world, full of world-class exhibits designed to answer your questions about the biblical account of Noahâs Ark.
And:
The Ark Encounter is a one-of-a-kind historically themed attraction in Williamstown, Kentucky. In an entertaining, educational, and immersive way, it presents a number of historical events centered on a full-size, all-wood Ark, which is the largest timber-frame structure in the world.

One does have to pay attention to the "timber-frame" part of the claim, because that might make it technically correct (I don't know, I'm just saying it's possible). The TRESTLE is just that, a trestle structure, not a timber-framed structure, in spite of having many timbers in its frame (which does not by itself make it a timer-framed structure). I don't know exactly what the definition of a timber-framed structure is, but I know it has a kind of frame made of timber that outlines the building, and the rest of the structure more or less hangs from that. It's not like the trestle structure of ATLAS-I, that I know. It still seems odd that it would be the largest timber-frame structure in the world, but for all I know it could be true. Glen Davidson

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 10 July 2016

AIG on the whole matter of timber framing vs. wooden structures in general, and who told them it was the largest timber frame structure.

Well, it's AIG, but I can't fault it from the little amount of time I considered what it says (not really a major issue, after all).

Glen Davidson

stevaroni · 10 July 2016

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad said: One does have to pay attention to the "timber-frame" part of the claim, because that might make it technically correct ....

I'm shocked, shocked! Ken Ham has been caught playing fast and loose with the facts - again - and his reaction is - again - to reflexivly defend his bullshit by hyper-parsing language instead of just admitting that he got bad info.

Not really a major issue, after all.

But that makes it all the more stupid. Why the compulsive need to defend a claim that is obvious nonsense, at lest to the great majority of human beings that aren't interested in the technical differences between big buildings made of wooden arches and big building made with posts and beams? To most normal humans the claim was "biggest wooden building". Why can't Ham, for once in his life, just man up and say "Hmmm. good point, that other building is bigger. Damn they had some crazy projects during the war. I'll have someone update that web page on Monday."

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 10 July 2016

stevaroni said:
https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad said: One does have to pay attention to the "timber-frame" part of the claim, because that might make it technically correct ....
I'm shocked, shocked! Ken Ham has been caught playing fast and loose with the facts - again - and his reaction is - again - to reflexivly defend his bullshit by hyper-parsing language instead of just admitting that he got bad info.
Not really a major issue, after all.
But that makes it all the more stupid. Why the compulsive need to defend a claim that is obvious nonsense, at lest to the great majority of human beings that aren't interested in the technical differences between big buildings made of wooden arches and big building made with posts and beams? To most normal humans the claim was "biggest wooden building". Why can't Ham, for once in his life, just man up and say "Hmmm. good point, that other building is bigger. Damn they had some crazy projects during the war. I'll have someone update that web page on Monday."

Yes, most people really don't know what claiming a building to be a timber frame structure entails, especially the sort of people targeted by his advertising. It might be somewhat difficult to summarize what it means, but if he was interested in not misleading people he would do so. Glen Davidson

stevaroni · 10 July 2016

Still, his weaseling is, as always, annoying* And, as usual, his rationalization is wrong...

Ham: âTimber framing is a distinctive style of building construction where heavy timbers are used to frame the structure instead of more slender dimensional lumber (for example, 2âx6â)

First of all, here's some photos of the Tillamook hangar being built. Bear in mind that those arches are 20 feet deep and 200 feet high. There are humans in some of the pictures for scale. They certainly seem like they qualify as "heavy timber" to me.

... One of the most defining elements of timber frame is its unique joints. Heavy timber is joined together via mortise and tenon then secured with wooden pegs.â The Ark is a true timber-frame construction, using heavy timbers, mortise and tenon joints, and so on.

Well that's great, but Ark Park isn't put together that way. If you look on the page Ham posted to make his case, you see a photo three kids standing next to what looks like a giant tenon. But that's not what that is. That big square block is not a structural tenon, it's just where they squared off the end of the post to allow the colum to be bolted to the foundation with a heavy steel bracket (first picture down). The irony is that the photographic proof Ham himself provides actually betrays the real structural system. If you follow up the columns up (away from the end the kids are at) you'll see a series of attachments for the rest of the frame, in the form of long steel plates passed through the posts at one-floor intervals. These are the structural elements that tie the floor beams into the posts, a detail clearly visible if you look at pictures of the center vestibule of the Ark (dramatic feature, yes, but interrupting those floors is a structural nightmare for a real boat, BTW). Far from a building of "tenon joints" and "wooden pins", if you do an Google image search for Ark Park Construction you can see a plethora photos of a conventional structure of heavy gopher steel brackets and gopher steel bolts holding the timbers together. Just like the Tillimook hangar. Want a better look? Here's a close-up on the Ark encounter website itself that brags about the size of the modern hardware holding the Ark together Sigh. I don't know why this annoys me enough to take an hour hour out of a Sunday writing a long post, especially about about such an inconsequential thing. It's just that Ham and his fellow creationists have this incredibly aggravating habit of getting caught in a fib, and then rather than just admitting they were wrong, digging in their heels and going into power lying mode to defend their obvious bullshit. Dude, the sky is blue and Ark Encounter is not the biggest timber building. Just be a fucking man about it and quietly take down the claim. Why is it so fucking impossible to admit that you got one little, inconsequential detail wrong? ** * _{And yes, methinks he is still a weasel} ** _{It's a rhetorical question, I know the answer is "There is never a wrong answer if it helps God".}

stevaroni · 10 July 2016

oops... bad html cutting and pasting at my end.

Here's the page with the picture showing that Ham's "tenons" are actually just where the end of the columns have been squared off so a large, totally conventional, steel bracket can bolt them to the foundation pad.