By Nile and Tigris Journeys in Egypt and Mesopotamia on behalf of the British Museum between the years 1886 and 1913 (1920), showing coracles, or circular boats woven from reeds and sealed with pitch. Wikimedia, public domain.
The other day I watched a Nova program, Secrets of Noah's Ark. Not much wholly new, and not a whole lot of secrets, but if you watch the program, you will learn of cuneiform inscriptions that describe how the gods precipitate a universal flood, Atrahasis builds an "ark" in the form of a circular basket 220 ft in diameter (70 m for those with better taste), and life begins again, precisely as in the Noah story. Or perhaps it is the other way around: the Jews during the Babylonian captivity took the story of Atrahasis and embellished it by making it a sort of morality play.
At any rate, if you watch the video, you will find that the Ark was more than likely a round, woven boat, known as a coracle, as in the picture above. Such boats are woven from reed ropes and sealed with pitch; they have been used for several millennia. The attempt to manufacture a coracle on a large scale was also interesting, even though it ended in only partial success.
Noah's Ark is said to have been a rectangular box (Genesis 6:15). Doubtful. More than likely, the Ark was a coracle. It was not, at any rate, shaped the least bit like a certain model being built in Kentucky right now.
37 Comments
Henry J · 11 October 2015
Maybe they took "Pi are square" a little too literally?
DavidK · 11 October 2015
Yes, I ventured to watch this show, expecting the usual drivel about Noah and Ararat. It was interesting, though not totally surprising, the dating of many floods that occurred within the Middle-East region over time. To a given village/city it would be catastrophic indeed, but it might not have affected other areas. That the similarity of stories to Noah's story is telling, and important, for they are all related and co-dependent on their predecessors. But to think Noah built a huge ship of wood is nonsensical, let alone to gather every animal worldwide.
fnxtr · 11 October 2015
Not available north of 49. :-(
Rolf · 11 October 2015
What about the rafts Thor Heyerdahls built in Iraq, (Named Ra I and Ra II?)
Mike Elzinga · 11 October 2015
So, does that mean everybody on the ark was a basket case after the flood?
Henry J · 11 October 2015
I thought it was Moses who was a basket case!
stevaroni · 11 October 2015
fnxtr said:
Not available north of 49. :-(
try the interwebs: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/
Robert Byers · 11 October 2015
Thanks for the Nova tip. I didn't know. Yes they are trying, again, to debunk the ark story. The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant. Good evidence the Hebrews, not Jews yet as the tribes still existed, did not get the story from Persia. by the way the flood story was common everywhere. Did the Greeks get thier Noah story from Persia? These other stories are the corrupted memories of a real event important to these nations. the bible story is the actual story as its not based on human memory. So much evidence for the truth of the flood by the written/oral evidence of mankinds memory. Great geological evidence also. Every dino ever found was killed in the first days/weeks of the flood and buries and thus preserved by the flood deposition. Its so unlikely its a common human myth. nOVA should do a show on the excellent evidence for the biblical flood and respect Christianity by giving equal time. However , i suspect, they show the rising modern creationist movement is affecting them and they are nervous. they are right.
Dave Luckett · 11 October 2015
Gasp! Byers actually said:
The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant.
Byers thinks that this vessel, four hundred feet long, seventy wide, forty deep, made of cypress sufficiently thick to bear its own weight - this, this thing was carried on their shoulders by a group of Hebrew priests.
Or he thinks that a box whose dimensions are given (Exodus 25:10) at six feet long, four wide and two deep is the same thing as the above.
When it comes to stuff like this - and with Byers, it always does - the words "he thinks" have no currency at all. There is simply no way to apply such an expression to whatever processes occur in his head.
Dr GS Hurd · 11 October 2015
Interesting that my last comment was deleted? Matt?
Yardbird · 11 October 2015
Dave Luckett said:
When it comes to stuff like this - and with Byers, it always does - the words "he thinks" have no currency at all. There is simply no way to apply such an expression to whatever processes occur in his head.
I picture the inside of his head containing a small, underfed hamster trying to run in an out of round wheel.
Mike Elzinga · 12 October 2015
Dave Luckett said:
Gasp! Byers actually said:
The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant.
Byers thinks that this vessel, four hundred feet long, seventy wide, forty deep, made of cypress sufficiently thick to bear its own weight - this, this thing was carried on their shoulders by a group of Hebrew priests.
Or he thinks that a box whose dimensions are given (Exodus 25:10) at six feet long, four wide and two deep is the same thing as the above.
...
Ah; so maybe it was actually an earlier version of the TARDIS before it assumed the shape of a London police box.
TomS · 12 October 2015
Robert Byers said:
Thanks for the Nova tip. I didn't know.
Yes they are trying, again, to debunk the ark story.
The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant. Good evidence the Hebrews, not Jews yet as the tribes still existed, did not get the story from Persia. by the way the flood story was common everywhere. Did the Greeks get thier Noah story from Persia?
These other stories are the corrupted memories of a real event important to these nations. the bible story is the actual story as its not based on human memory.
So much evidence for the truth of the flood by the written/oral evidence of mankinds memory. Great geological evidence also. Every dino ever found was killed in the first days/weeks of the flood and buries and thus preserved by the flood deposition.
Its so unlikely its a common human myth.
nOVA should do a show on the excellent evidence for the biblical flood and respect Christianity by giving equal time.
However , i suspect, they show the rising modern creationist movement is affecting them and they are nervous. they are right.
The Hebrew text of the Bible uses different words for what the King James Bible renders as "ark" for Noah's Ark and the Ark of the Covenant.
gnome de net · 12 October 2015
Robert Byers said:
Every dino ever found was killed in the first days/weeks of the flood and buries and thus preserved by the flood deposition.
Help me out here, Robert.
For two thousand years (+/- a few hundred here or there) after The Fall and before The Flood, death was a new fact of life. All living things in God's Creation died eventually, as did those newly-born. Some sooner than others, some later.
Animals died and left their carcasses to decompose or be scavenged. After people died their earthly remains were given a decent Christian burial.
Along came The Flood which destroyed all living things except those on board The Ark. All of those dead creatures â men, women, children, dinosaurs, horses, elephants, dogs, cats â all sank beneath the waves and settled on the bottom to be buried by sediments as the waters receded.
Here's where I need help, Robert: Why are we able to find the fossilized remains of only dinosaurs and not of any other creature that perished in The Flood? And more significantly, why have we never found any graves of those decently-buried Christians who had been dying for two thousand years in pre-flood levels below the dinosaurs?
Henry J · 12 October 2015
Maybe they need to find the remains of the town of Bedrock...
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
Interesting that my last comment was deleted? Matt?
Hi Gary -- Not me; never saw it. Why don't you try running it again?
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
Help me out here, Robert.
Pls do not feed the troll. Mr. Byers has gotten his 1 comment; I will send any future comments to the Bathroom Wall.
W. H. Heydt · 12 October 2015
Robert Byers said:
Thanks for the Nova tip. I didn't know.
Yes they are trying, again, to debunk the ark story.
The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant. Good evidence the Hebrews, not Jews yet as the tribes still existed, did not get the story from Persia. by the way the flood story was common everywhere. Did the Greeks get thier Noah story from Persia?
These other stories are the corrupted memories of a real event important to these nations. the bible story is the actual story as its not based on human memory.
I see...on this topic you are an extreme anti-diffusionist. Of course, you are also unfamiliar with the all too human tendency to exaggerate and embellish stories over time, or--at least--unwilling to accept that people did that sort of story telling 3K years ago. And yet you maintain that people haven't changed. Kind of what Josephine Tey had her protagonist say in _The Daughter of Time_, in that you are unable to reason from B to C.
Glen Davidson · 12 October 2015
Or perhaps it is the other way around: the Jews during the Babylonian captivity took the story of Atrahasis and embellished it by making it a sort of morality play.
I thought that bit was weak. It was an old story by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, why would they suppose that the Jews didn't already know the flood story? Moreover, while it's entirely possible that one or more of the stories used did exist in Babylon, some scholars claim that the Genesis story doesn't (proximally) derive from any of the versions known from Babylon or Mesopotamia in general, rather that it appears indeed to be a Canaanite version. The "fountains of the great deep" reflects Canaanite cosmology, not Mesopotamian, at least according to one source I've read. For that matter, why are two flood stories apparently intertwined in the Genesis account? The one telling of taking seven of "clean" animals doesn't seem to be Babylonian, but would seem to be a familiar Jewish version of the flood story (there had to be more than two of the "clean animals" if Noah was going to make sacrifices of the clean).
That the Jews would understand that their flood story was corroborated by Babylonian flood stories does seem likely, increasing the odds that they'd include it in the Torah. But why anyone would think that a story that clearly existed in Mesopotamia at least a millenium before the Babylonian Captivity would be a new story to the Jews at that time, I really can't imagine. Most likely it was known throughout the mideast by the first millenium BC, although the Egyptians never seemed to incorporate it into their myths. Neither organisms nor texts seem to follow the linear evolution once generally assumed, thus there's no reason to think that the Genesis version came directly from the Jews' exposure to the Atra-hasis, especially since they differ markedly in the details--such as the dimensions and shape of the ark.
Glen Davidson
Keith Clarke · 12 October 2015
This seems to be a program shown in the UK last year or early this year, based loosely on a book "The Ark Before Noah" by Irving Finkel of the British Museum.
Here's one of the many reviews it received: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/09/the-ark-before-noah-irving-finkel-review-flood-bible
The book is a lot more nuanced that the TV programme, as you'd expect; it's an excellent read.
Kevin B · 12 October 2015
Glen Davidson said:
Or perhaps it is the other way around: the Jews during the Babylonian captivity took the story of Atrahasis and embellished it by making it a sort of morality play.
I thought that bit was weak. It was an old story by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, why would they suppose that the Jews didn't already know the flood story? Moreover, while it's entirely possible that one or more of the stories used did exist in Babylon, some scholars claim that the Genesis story doesn't (proximally) derive from any of the versions known from Babylon or Mesopotamia in general, rather that it appears indeed to be a Canaanite version. The "fountains of the great deep" reflects Canaanite cosmology, not Mesopotamian, at least according to one source I've read. For that matter, why are two flood stories apparently intertwined in the Genesis account? The one telling of taking seven of "clean" animals doesn't seem to be Babylonian, but would seem to be a familiar Jewish version of the flood story (there had to be more than two of the "clean animals" if Noah was going to make sacrifices of the clean).
That the Jews would understand that their flood story was corroborated by Babylonian flood stories does seem likely, increasing the odds that they'd include it in the Torah. But why anyone would think that a story that clearly existed in Mesopotamia at least a millenium before the Babylonian Captivity would be a new story to the Jews at that time, I really can't imagine. Most likely it was known throughout the mideast by the first millenium BC, although the Egyptians never seemed to incorporate it into their myths. Neither organisms nor texts seem to follow the linear evolution once generally assumed, thus there's no reason to think that the Genesis version came directly from the Jews' exposure to the Atra-hasis, especially since they differ markedly in the details--such as the dimensions and shape of the ark.
Glen Davidson
The Egyptians had a real, epic flood every year. Their flood disaster fear was that the flood wouldn't happen. A Noachian world-flood myth probably conflicted with their theology.
I must say that the title "Noah's Ark was a Basket" immediately led me to the thought "Chicken in a basket" and thence to "Dinosaur in a basket" as an explanation for their extinction in a Creationist context.....
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
I thought that bit was weak. It was an old story by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, why would they suppose that the Jews didnât already know the flood story?
Review of Finkel's book, the book on which the Nova program was based, here. The reviewer, Jerry Coyne, remarks that the Babylonian flood myths are older than Noah, but that certainly does not prove that Noah was based on Atrahasis. I am sure there were lots of myths floating around Canaan, ripe for the picking.
Coyne also directs us to an article by Finkel himself. Both articles, Coyne's and Finkel's, show a nice picture of a 1920's coracle.
Regarding the 2 Noah stories: No time or inclination to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis, but there are lots of doublets in the Torah. The questions is, Why 7? I seriously doubt that the explanation regarding sacrifices is sound: You do not need 7 pairs of every "clean" animal just to make a sacrifice. I imagine 7 because 7 was a magic number and one version of the story just used 7 as opposed to 2 by 2. The Redactor included both stories, but not in sequence.
stevaroni · 12 October 2015
Robert Byers said:
Yes they are trying, again, to debunk the ark story.
Dude, seriously, it's not an issue of de bunking the Ark, the issue is that you never bunked it in the first place.
Nova didn't do a show disputing the story of Noah and all the animals and a boat 450 feet long because there's no evidence to dispute in the first place.
Noah and his Ark are, as every sentient adult should know, a children's story. The Ark has all the veracity of the Easter Bunny, and leaves just as much evidence behind.
Am I wrong? Then show me some significant evidence.
Don't just wave your hands, show me some specific mountain basin that's deep with 4000 year old silt entombing a wide, mixed cross section of animals that we foolish scientists believe lived millions of years apart.
Show me some specific geological evidence of a world-wide flood sometime in the early bronze age.
Show me something in the pattern of animal distribution that demonstrates migration from a single source in Turkey sometime around when "historical science" expects the Egyptians to be building the Bent Pyramid.
This should be trivial, FL. The flood was a world-changing event, it should have left unambiguous, indisputable evidence all over the place.
It should be easier to find evidence of the flood than of, say, glaciers, or historical earthquakes, or old waterways, or landslides, or volcanoes, all of which actually exist as observable, historical shit.
Yet somehow none of the hundreds of extant civilizations seems to have made much note of walking out to get the morning goat-milk and noticing 20,000 feet of standing water in the front yard.
It's not necessary to debunk Noah's Ark, FL, because there's nothing there in the first place except bunk.
Nova should do a show on the excellent evidence for the biblical flood and respect Christianity by giving equal time.
What are you talking about?
They did give the evidence of a historical Noah of Genesis equal time. Despite 2000 years of looking, you still have no actual evidence, and you got a slice of time exactly commensurate with that.
Yardbird · 12 October 2015
Kevin B said:
I must say that the title "Noah's Ark was a Basket" immediately led me to the thought "Chicken in a basket" and thence to "Dinosaur in a basket" as an explanation for their extinction in a Creationist context.....
Well, I'm having doubts about that. Too many dinosaurs. Not enough car hops.
Yardbird · 12 October 2015
gnome de net said:
Along came The Flood which destroyed all living things except those on board The Ark. All of those dead creatures â men, women, children, dinosaurs, horses, elephants, dogs, cats â all sank beneath the waves and settled on the bottom to be buried by sediments as the waters receded.
Wombats. You forgot wombats.
Seriously, though, Christians before the Flood? Or are you being Byersistic?
gnome de net · 13 October 2015
Yardbird asked:
...are you being Byersistic?
Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits twolls.
Yardbird · 13 October 2015
gnome de net said:
Yardbird asked:
...are you being Byersistic?
Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits twolls.
Don't you know it's duck season?
Kevin B · 13 October 2015
Yardbird said:
gnome de net said:
Yardbird asked:
...are you being Byersistic?
Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits twolls.
Don't you know it's duck season?
No, it's a false rumour being spread by Bugs Byers.
And beware of the out-balance forces resulting from discharging a hunting rifle in a coracle, (especially if either bears an "Acme" trademark.)
Matt G · 18 October 2015
Or maybe a lot of baskets. A basket case.
TomS · 18 October 2015
As I recall, the same Hebrew word was used for Noah's Ark as for the basket that the infant Moses was discovered floating in. (And not for the Ark of the Covenant.)
Yardbird · 18 October 2015
Kevin B said:
Yardbird said:
gnome de net said:
Yardbird asked:
...are you being Byersistic?
Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits twolls.
Don't you know it's duck season?
No, it's a false rumour being spread by Bugs Byers.
And beware of the out-balance forces resulting from discharging a hunting rifle in a coracle, (especially if either bears an "Acme" trademark.)
A couple of anvils should help stabilize that.
Matt Young · 18 October 2015
As I recall, the same Hebrew word was used for Noahâs Ark as for the basket that the infant Moses was discovered floating in. (And not for the Ark of the Covenant.)
Yes. Noah's Ark and the basket are both Tevah. Ark of the Covenant is Aron. It is probably no coincidence that the basket and Noah's Ark are the same word. I do not know why KJV rendered them both Ark.
TomS · 18 October 2015
Matt Young said:
As I recall, the same Hebrew word was used for Noahâs Ark as for the basket that the infant Moses was discovered floating in. (And not for the Ark of the Covenant.)
Yes. Noah's Ark and the basket are both Tevah. Ark of the Covenant is Aron. It is probably no coincidence that the basket and Noah's Ark are the same word. I do not know why KJV rendered them both Ark.
The ancient Septuagint Greek translation uses the same word, kibo:tos, and the Latin Vulgate follows that, using arca - obviously that being the etymology of the English word.
I thought that bit was weak. It was an old story by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, why would they suppose that the Jews didnât already know the flood story?
Review of Finkel's book, the book on which the Nova program was based, here. The reviewer, Jerry Coyne, remarks that the Babylonian flood myths are older than Noah....
Older does not mean the original source. The Biblical version of events, as a claim, means it is the protected version of events.
Just Bob · 23 October 2015
Ray Martinez said:
Older does not mean the original source. The Biblical version of events, as a claim, means it is the protected version of events.
Protected by whom? Which of the 55 or so English versions of the Bible listed on Bible Gateway--none of which agree in all particulars with any other one--is the 'protected' one?
Bob C · 27 October 2015
"More than likely, the Ark was a coracle."
Of course there was no Ark. The Noah's Ark genocide myth never happened.
An interesting thing about the Christian extremists (millions of Americans) who believe this ridiculous nonsense - They have no problem with their bible god murdering thousands of babies. I asked them about this a few times and always they invent excuses for this disgusting mythical atrocity. For example it was the parents fault. Or the babies weren't murdered, they just magically flew to the magical paradise. Christians have the moral values of terrorists, except terrorists don't usually murder babies.
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37 Comments
Henry J · 11 October 2015
Maybe they took "Pi are square" a little too literally?
DavidK · 11 October 2015
Yes, I ventured to watch this show, expecting the usual drivel about Noah and Ararat. It was interesting, though not totally surprising, the dating of many floods that occurred within the Middle-East region over time. To a given village/city it would be catastrophic indeed, but it might not have affected other areas. That the similarity of stories to Noah's story is telling, and important, for they are all related and co-dependent on their predecessors. But to think Noah built a huge ship of wood is nonsensical, let alone to gather every animal worldwide.
fnxtr · 11 October 2015
Not available north of 49. :-(
Rolf · 11 October 2015
What about the rafts Thor Heyerdahls built in Iraq, (Named Ra I and Ra II?)
Mike Elzinga · 11 October 2015
So, does that mean everybody on the ark was a basket case after the flood?
Henry J · 11 October 2015
I thought it was Moses who was a basket case!
stevaroni · 11 October 2015
Robert Byers · 11 October 2015
Thanks for the Nova tip. I didn't know.
Yes they are trying, again, to debunk the ark story.
The ark was the same thing as the ark of the covenant. Good evidence the Hebrews, not Jews yet as the tribes still existed, did not get the story from Persia. by the way the flood story was common everywhere. Did the Greeks get thier Noah story from Persia?
These other stories are the corrupted memories of a real event important to these nations. the bible story is the actual story as its not based on human memory.
So much evidence for the truth of the flood by the written/oral evidence of mankinds memory. Great geological evidence also. Every dino ever found was killed in the first days/weeks of the flood and buries and thus preserved by the flood deposition.
Its so unlikely its a common human myth.
nOVA should do a show on the excellent evidence for the biblical flood and respect Christianity by giving equal time.
However , i suspect, they show the rising modern creationist movement is affecting them and they are nervous. they are right.
Dave Luckett · 11 October 2015
Dr GS Hurd · 11 October 2015
Interesting that my last comment was deleted? Matt?
Yardbird · 11 October 2015
Mike Elzinga · 12 October 2015
TomS · 12 October 2015
gnome de net · 12 October 2015
Henry J · 12 October 2015
Maybe they need to find the remains of the town of Bedrock...
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
W. H. Heydt · 12 October 2015
Glen Davidson · 12 October 2015
Keith Clarke · 12 October 2015
This seems to be a program shown in the UK last year or early this year, based loosely on a book "The Ark Before Noah" by Irving Finkel of the British Museum.
Here's one of the many reviews it received: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/09/the-ark-before-noah-irving-finkel-review-flood-bible
The book is a lot more nuanced that the TV programme, as you'd expect; it's an excellent read.
Kevin B · 12 October 2015
Matt Young · 12 October 2015
stevaroni · 12 October 2015
Yardbird · 12 October 2015
Yardbird · 12 October 2015
gnome de net · 13 October 2015
wabbitstwolls.Yardbird · 13 October 2015
Kevin B · 13 October 2015
Matt G · 18 October 2015
Or maybe a lot of baskets. A basket case.
TomS · 18 October 2015
As I recall, the same Hebrew word was used for Noah's Ark as for the basket that the infant Moses was discovered floating in. (And not for the Ark of the Covenant.)
Yardbird · 18 October 2015
Matt Young · 18 October 2015
TomS · 18 October 2015
Michael Fugate · 19 October 2015
The most appropriate Dan Piraro's Bizarro for 10/19/2015.
Ray Martinez · 23 October 2015
Just Bob · 23 October 2015
Bob C · 27 October 2015
"More than likely, the Ark was a coracle."
Of course there was no Ark. The Noah's Ark genocide myth never happened.
An interesting thing about the Christian extremists (millions of Americans) who believe this ridiculous nonsense - They have no problem with their bible god murdering thousands of babies. I asked them about this a few times and always they invent excuses for this disgusting mythical atrocity. For example it was the parents fault. Or the babies weren't murdered, they just magically flew to the magical paradise. Christians have the moral values of terrorists, except terrorists don't usually murder babies.