An Icicle showing ripples due to impurities in the water. How the impurities cause the ripples is unknown.
23 Comments
Just Bob · 9 March 2015
How the impurities cause the ripples is unknown.
Well, duhh... it's obviously Designed! Intelligent Freezing. You Evilutionists can't see Design when it's right where you could freeze your tongue to it!
Mike Elzinga · 9 March 2015
It's cold; they came through a shivering icicle extruder.
Robert Byers · 9 March 2015
This was a intersting thread. Its welcome from this creationist. it hits upon the point of layering concepts without mere time and ordinary mechanism. So likewise in geomorphology it is needed for mechanisms to explain rapid/continuos layering in sediment and with fossils within. I will download it for reflection. they still don't understand it and this suggests things in nature should not so easily be explained without proof. Indeed it means bigger concepts are not leading to predictions of these things in nature. A important point. Finally i QUESTION that TWO THEORIES is the right words. Two hypothesis perhaps butr not theories. a theory in science must be more solid then mere speculation. since the two means one is wrong then at least one , probably both, are not theories. This matters in origin issues. Pretty picture too. canadian connection also.
Just Bob · 9 March 2015
Robert, I'm not trying to be snarky at all, but are you on meds? I'm concerned because your writing seems to have deteriorated. IANA doctor, but that could be a symptom of something serious. Perhaps you should make an appointment. You might even take a copy of the post above. My doctor is appreciative when I bring a journal or list of recent symptoms, even though there's nothing wrong right now.
Henry J · 9 March 2015
Maybe if molecules of the impurity tend to clump, with space between the clumps, and if the impurity also affects surface tension of the water, could that produce a cyclic effect? Is that hypothesis at least plausible?
ksplawn · 9 March 2015
An impure constitution prevents one from traveling the straight and narrow.
Obviously, these are sinful -cicles.
Henry J · 9 March 2015
Well then, if there is a violation of the constitution, somebody should take it to the supreme court...
Matt Young · 10 March 2015
What I did not mention -- the pitch of the ripples (distance between peaks) is constant, independent of concentration of impurity. Also, they added a surfactant to reduce the surface tension, and that did not increase the amplitude of the ripples, so surface tension is not related in any obvious way. The whole process remains mysterious.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
Perhaps it's something to do with timing like the rings on a tree. It might be something like the Goldilocks effect.
ksplawn · 11 March 2015
Science is powerless to explain this phenomenon. Obviously, this is where unicorn horns come from.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
What about gravity, temperature and timing.
Just Bob · 11 March 2015
Marilyn said:
What about gravity, temperature and timing.
IANA scientist, but gravity doesn't change. Temperature could vary and the timing of new drips moving down the icicle could vary for some reason. But why would either of those cause those ridges to form? Could quickly lowered temperatures cause more drops to freeze at the tip, forming a 'bulb', which would then be expanded into a ridge as the icicle grew? Then a brief warmer spell would let drops fall off faster, forming the next valley.
That's probably totally bogus, but dammit, you're making me think, Marilyn.
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
Is the concentration of the impurity in the ice uniform throughout the ripple? The concentration of the impurity in the runoff stratifies due to gravity. The concentration is unequal and the top part of the liquid part freezes faster due to lower freezing temperature â the impurity sinking because it is heavier and the lower part has more of it. Eventually the impurity rich lower part freezes and the normal concentration of impurity is reestablished in the runoff and the process starts again. With the constant ripple pitch, perhaps the change of freezing temperature is a threshold that once there is a critical amount, the proces start but further increase in impurity does not further change the freezing process.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
I'll have read at the paper now.... Does the weight of the water change with the addition of salt if the icicle is rotating that could course an exaggeration in the distance it splashes from side to side, what happens if it doesn't rotate... I'll see if it says anything about that.
I was thinking along the lines of Hrothgar, but s(he) said it quite well. I was wondering as well if any impurity stratification effects the amount of expansion of the water as it locks into a frozen state. Maybe more pure water expands more, and less pure expands less. Or vice-versa.
Mike Elzinga · 11 March 2015
Just coming out of decompression from traveling. Downloaded the paper. Gotta think about it; r-e-s-i-s-t-a-n-c-e i-s f-u-t-i-l-e!
Mike Elzinga · 11 March 2015
Hrothgar said:
Is the concentration of the impurity in the ice uniform throughout the ripple? The concentration of the impurity in the runoff stratifies due to gravity. The concentration is unequal and the top part of the liquid part freezes faster due to lower freezing temperature â the impurity sinking because it is heavier and the lower part has more of it. Eventually the impurity rich lower part freezes and the normal concentration of impurity is reestablished in the runoff and the process starts again. With the constant ripple pitch, perhaps the change of freezing temperature is a threshold that once there is a critical amount, the proces start but further increase in impurity does not further change the freezing process.
This seems like a very good start.
How the water molecules lock together and expand their geometric space - water is a compound that expands when it freezes - would very likely depend on impurities; especially strongly ionizing impurities such as sodium chloride.
As I recall, the impurity concentration doesn't have to be very much; and it has a very strong effect on the freezing temperature.
In fact, one can lower the temperature of a mixture of ice and water by placing it in an insulated container and adding salt. Salt breaks water molecule bonds and increases the number of degrees of freedom of the water molecules. The same total energy distributed among more degrees of freedom means less kinetic energy per degree of freedom; i.e., lower temperature. This is the way old hand-crank ice cream makers work.
fnxtr · 11 March 2015
Maybe it's a resonance thing.
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
When all else fails, read the instructions. I read up on how water solutions freeze. One way of putting it is that when the solution begins to freeze the water molecules freeze and push away the salt molecules because they don't fit in very well. Sections of the solution therefore have differing degrees of impurity. One source said heterogeneous but not homogenous. So if the temperature is low enough, all the material freezes yielding areas of differing density.
Mark Sturtevant (6:43PM) mentioned differing expansions. Impure water should have a slightly different expansion, either greater due to lack of fit of the impurity molecules or less since the impurity molecules do not expand when freezing and a higher proportion of impurity would lessen the overall expansion. This should be able to be determined by experiment.
Jumping to a conclusion, perhaps this is the normal way of water but in a pond or container it just isn't noticeable. The peculiar form and formation (flowing water in unhindered vertical motion) of an icicle allows this differing expansion effect to be easily seen.
OTOH if it were that simple, it wouldnât be a mystery would it?
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
Ha. Now that I've pontificated, I'll read the entire paper. I liked the video.
Marilyn · 12 March 2015
This experiment is good as an indication in case ever you had to eat an icicle and what to look out for, also to asses the environment it's in, and further afield if ever we were to venture to Europa it gives a lot of guide lines as to what to look out for there, and to asses that environment, if there were any icicle formations without ripples it would give a good indication of the sort of liquid water was available as the same for any other planet or even comets, also a consideration would be the lack of then if there were none.
Matt Young · 17 March 2015
Times article here describes the research on icicle formation and links to an atlas here. The atlas holds 230,000 images of icicles.
23 Comments
Just Bob · 9 March 2015
Mike Elzinga · 9 March 2015
It's cold; they came through a shivering icicle extruder.
Robert Byers · 9 March 2015
This was a intersting thread. Its welcome from this creationist. it hits upon the point of layering concepts without mere time and ordinary mechanism. So likewise in geomorphology it is needed for mechanisms to explain rapid/continuos layering in sediment and with fossils within. I will download it for reflection.
they still don't understand it and this suggests things in nature should not so easily be explained without proof.
Indeed it means bigger concepts are not leading to predictions of these things in nature. A important point.
Finally i QUESTION that TWO THEORIES is the right words. Two hypothesis perhaps butr not theories. a theory in science must be more solid then mere speculation. since the two means one is wrong then at least one , probably both, are not theories.
This matters in origin issues.
Pretty picture too. canadian connection also.
Just Bob · 9 March 2015
Robert, I'm not trying to be snarky at all, but are you on meds? I'm concerned because your writing seems to have deteriorated. IANA doctor, but that could be a symptom of something serious. Perhaps you should make an appointment. You might even take a copy of the post above. My doctor is appreciative when I bring a journal or list of recent symptoms, even though there's nothing wrong right now.
Henry J · 9 March 2015
Maybe if molecules of the impurity tend to clump, with space between the clumps, and if the impurity also affects surface tension of the water, could that produce a cyclic effect? Is that hypothesis at least plausible?
ksplawn · 9 March 2015
An impure constitution prevents one from traveling the straight and narrow.
Obviously, these are sinful -cicles.
Henry J · 9 March 2015
Well then, if there is a violation of the constitution, somebody should take it to the supreme court...
Matt Young · 10 March 2015
What I did not mention -- the pitch of the ripples (distance between peaks) is constant, independent of concentration of impurity. Also, they added a surfactant to reduce the surface tension, and that did not increase the amplitude of the ripples, so surface tension is not related in any obvious way. The whole process remains mysterious.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
Perhaps it's something to do with timing like the rings on a tree. It might be something like the Goldilocks effect.
ksplawn · 11 March 2015
Science is powerless to explain this phenomenon. Obviously, this is where unicorn horns come from.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
What about gravity, temperature and timing.
Just Bob · 11 March 2015
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
Is the concentration of the impurity in the ice uniform throughout the ripple? The concentration of the impurity in the runoff stratifies due to gravity. The concentration is unequal and the top part of the liquid part freezes faster due to lower freezing temperature â the impurity sinking because it is heavier and the lower part has more of it. Eventually the impurity rich lower part freezes and the normal concentration of impurity is reestablished in the runoff and the process starts again. With the constant ripple pitch, perhaps the change of freezing temperature is a threshold that once there is a critical amount, the proces start but further increase in impurity does not further change the freezing process.
Marilyn · 11 March 2015
I'll have read at the paper now.... Does the weight of the water change with the addition of salt if the icicle is rotating that could course an exaggeration in the distance it splashes from side to side, what happens if it doesn't rotate... I'll see if it says anything about that.
Robert Byers · 11 March 2015
This comment has been moved to The Bathroom Wall.
Mark Sturtevant · 11 March 2015
I was thinking along the lines of Hrothgar, but s(he) said it quite well. I was wondering as well if any impurity stratification effects the amount of expansion of the water as it locks into a frozen state. Maybe more pure water expands more, and less pure expands less. Or vice-versa.
Mike Elzinga · 11 March 2015
Just coming out of decompression from traveling. Downloaded the paper. Gotta think about it; r-e-s-i-s-t-a-n-c-e i-s f-u-t-i-l-e!
Mike Elzinga · 11 March 2015
fnxtr · 11 March 2015
Maybe it's a resonance thing.
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
When all else fails, read the instructions. I read up on how water solutions freeze. One way of putting it is that when the solution begins to freeze the water molecules freeze and push away the salt molecules because they don't fit in very well. Sections of the solution therefore have differing degrees of impurity. One source said heterogeneous but not homogenous. So if the temperature is low enough, all the material freezes yielding areas of differing density.
Mark Sturtevant (6:43PM) mentioned differing expansions. Impure water should have a slightly different expansion, either greater due to lack of fit of the impurity molecules or less since the impurity molecules do not expand when freezing and a higher proportion of impurity would lessen the overall expansion. This should be able to be determined by experiment.
Jumping to a conclusion, perhaps this is the normal way of water but in a pond or container it just isn't noticeable. The peculiar form and formation (flowing water in unhindered vertical motion) of an icicle allows this differing expansion effect to be easily seen.
OTOH if it were that simple, it wouldnât be a mystery would it?
Hrothgar · 11 March 2015
Ha. Now that I've pontificated, I'll read the entire paper. I liked the video.
Marilyn · 12 March 2015
This experiment is good as an indication in case ever you had to eat an icicle and what to look out for, also to asses the environment it's in, and further afield if ever we were to venture to Europa it gives a lot of guide lines as to what to look out for there, and to asses that environment, if there were any icicle formations without ripples it would give a good indication of the sort of liquid water was available as the same for any other planet or even comets, also a consideration would be the lack of then if there were none.
Matt Young · 17 March 2015
Times article here describes the research on icicle formation and links to an atlas here. The atlas holds 230,000 images of icicles.