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Freshwater: It is finished

Posted 6 October 2014 by Richard B. Hoppe

The Supreme Court of the U.S. today denied John Freshwater's request (PDF) for a writ of certiorari. In other words, the Court declined to hear his case. After a legal saga that spanned more than six years and involved a two year long administrative hearing, a Court of Common Pleas review, an appeal to the state Court of Appeals, and an appeal to the Ohio Supreme Court, we are finally done. After an administrative hearing that generated over 6,000 pages of transcript, and after costing the school district on the order of $1m in direct costs (not counting the indirect costs of teacher and administrator time), the case is finally at an end. One of these days I may write a retrospective piece on the case, but for now I'm simply glad that the damned thing is over.

67 Comments

Richard B. Hoppe · 6 October 2014

I should note that NCSE's piece is up, too.

DS · 6 October 2014

So god was not on the Freshwater's side after all. Good to know. Now do you think that he will admit that he was wrong? Now do you think that he will admit that the voices in his head were not god? Now do you think that he will apologize to all of the students that he cheated out of a science education? Me neither.

DS · 6 October 2014

PS If you let Byers infest this thread with his "censorship" nonsense and "truth" crap you will get what you asked for. Let it post once if you must, but after that banish it, at least to the bathroom wall. One thread of thirteen pages of pissing and moaning and whining is enough.

DavidK · 6 October 2014

But Freshwater will forever remain a martyr for the cause of "religious freedom" and "freedom of speech," creationism/ID, and it was the "liberal" SCOTUS led by Roberts that has denied his path to glory.

DS · 6 October 2014

Right. SCOTUS was more powerful than god. Got it.

Kevin · 6 October 2014

I anticipate that Freshwater will become a circuit speaker in various middling sized churches. If he is really lucky, then he can get on with the DI as their "curriculum advisor" or some other cushy title.

I still maintain that all this effort was wrong and Freshwater should be in jail for abuse of children. The rest of it is just a sideshow that somehow became the center-piece.

Richard B. Hoppe · 6 October 2014

I let the other thread go because it so perfectly illustrates the cognitive blockage that creationists display. This thread is verboten to him.
DS said: PS If you let Byers infest this thread with his "censorship" nonsense and "truth" crap you will get what you asked for. Let it post once if you must, but after that banish it, at least to the bathroom wall. One thread of thirteen pages of pissing and moaning and whining is enough.

tedhohio · 6 October 2014

Finally! I'm sure Freshwater and his attorney(s) will find a way to spin the SCOTUS not hearing their appeal into some backhanded victory, but the best news is he won't be teaching in public schools in Mount Vernon OH any more. I will be curious if he does land another teaching job someplace? Will he take his burn-crosses-into-students-arms tools with him?

Anyone else remember Nathanial Abraham, who got fired at Woods-Hole Oceanographic a bunch of years ago. He was hired as an evolutionary biologist who, after accepting the job, disclosed that he didn't believe in evolution so couldn't do that part of his job. Last I heard he was teaching at Liberty University . . . you know Jerry Falwell's excuse for a school. Maybe Freshwater needs a reference?

Richard B. Hoppe · 6 October 2014

He can't. Recall that his attorney's wife mistook it for groceries and put it in the freezer. :)
tedhohio said: I will be curious if he does land another teaching job someplace? Will he take his burn-crosses-into-students-arms tools with him?

burllamb · 6 October 2014

Oh my God!.....Was it good for you, too?

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 6 October 2014

A modern martyr.

And to stupidity, no less.

I suppose the Rutherford Institute's point was that it gets expensive to fire such scofflaws. Nevertheless, it should be easier the next time, because of the precedents set.

And, the next "martyr" might not be so willing to spend so much to proselytize at state expense.

Glen Davidson

DS · 6 October 2014

Richard B. Hoppe said: I let the other thread go because it so perfectly illustrates the cognitive blockage that creationists display. This thread is verboten to him.
DS said: PS If you let Byers infest this thread with his "censorship" nonsense and "truth" crap you will get what you asked for. Let it post once if you must, but after that banish it, at least to the bathroom wall. One thread of thirteen pages of pissing and moaning and whining is enough.
Thank you Richard. You are wise beyond my years.

DS · 6 October 2014

Kevin said: I anticipate that Freshwater will become a circuit speaker in various middling sized churches. If he is really lucky, then he can get on with the DI as their "curriculum advisor" or some other cushy title. I still maintain that all this effort was wrong and Freshwater should be in jail for abuse of children. The rest of it is just a sideshow that somehow became the center-piece.
I agree. After all, he was caught red handed, so to speak. Does anyone know how much of his own money Freshwater lost and how much money he cost other people?

eric · 6 October 2014

DS said: Does anyone know how much of his own money Freshwater lost and how much money he cost other people?
Well, supposedly he lost his house to his first lawyer. This link mentions that Freshwater's Rutherford Institute lawyer (for the appeals process) was representing him pro bono, so the appeals may not have put him in any further hock than what we was after the original case ended.

Mike Elzinga · 6 October 2014

eric said:
DS said: Does anyone know how much of his own money Freshwater lost and how much money he cost other people?
Well, supposedly he lost his house to his first lawyer. This link mentions that Freshwater's Rutherford Institute lawyer (for the appeals process) was representing him pro bono, so the appeals may not have put him in any further hock than what we was after the original case ended.
The million dollar (plus some) cost to the school district still rankles, however. No matter which school district or state board of education they hit, ID/creationists have always been able to foist the major costs onto the taxpayer. At least, in this case, Freshwater lost monetarily as well. That may be a deterrent to future martyr wannabes. However, if Freshwater is able to capitalize on the poor-persecuted-me market among fundamentalists and the Right Wing, he might be able to start claiming that his deity put him through the shadow of the valley of death but brought him out the other side with monetary rewards beyond his wildest dreams. I wonder if we will see another "fart video."

gnome de net · 6 October 2014

The Freshwater news is a huge breath of fresh air!

https://me.yahoo.com/a/JxVN0eQFqtmgoY7wC1cZM44ET_iAanxHQmLgYgX_Zhn8#57cad · 6 October 2014

I wonder if we will see another “fart video.”
Well, there's this. Oh, you meant a literal fart video? It all kind of blurs together for me. Glen Davidson

harold · 6 October 2014

This is great news.

The worst outcome has been avoided.

I certainly agree with the concerns of others, that if Freshwater capitalizes on the case to launch a speaking or wingnut welfare career, that could create a perverse incentive for more shenanigans by similar types. Or should I say, worsen the already existing perverse incentive.

Since I'm a moderate person by world standards, that makes me, despite my short hair, clean shave, nerdy career, and square wardrobe, a crazy hippie by contemporary US standards. I'm such a crazy hippie that, in violation of the current trend of scorched earth attitudes, I don't wish any terrible harm on Freshwater. I just want him to find a job that is suited to his attitudes and abilities, and stop violating peoples' rights.

As far as public school teaching, he's probably done, and in this case, it's an example of a benign effect of private industry. Public schools are insured by private insurers. Remember that although Freshwater was not personally punished for the Tesla coil incident, that case was settled. By the insurance company. They won't be lining up to insure this guy.

As far as wingnut welfare, they tend to like people who are either from business or government, or who have a PhD. World Net Daily and Breitbart aren't exactly welfare - they work their "columnists" hard for low pay, and I'm not sure Freshwater could cut it. He's not exactly Heritage material. DI? Their fellows all have the symbolic higher degree, PhD or prestigious law degree.

As far as speaking career, well, the "I'm a martyr because I lost" message has a lot less appeal than "I won and stuck it to the evolutionists".

So we'll see.

Mike Elzinga · 6 October 2014

harold said: As far as speaking career, well, the "I'm a martyr because I lost" message has a lot less appeal than "I won and stuck it to the evolutionists". So we'll see.
Tesla coil "cures" as a sidekick of Bennie Hinn or Peter Popoff? Nah; folks like Bennie or Peter don't share the wealth.

Matt Young · 6 October 2014

I expect the case to go largely unnoticed, but Americans United issued a press release here. At any rate, many thanks to RBH for keeping us up to date, lo, these many years!

Leigh Stotland · 6 October 2014

Please consider writing a book.
Thank you for all the work you have done to keep us informed.

cmb · 6 October 2014

Goodbye John! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Thanks for everything Dick! Great coverage!

Charley Horse · 6 October 2014

According to a comment made by a reader on a news article in today's Columbus Dispatch concerning Freshwater:
QUOTE: He is now the Science Teacher at Genoa Christian Acc. in Geona township, when he is not grinding stumps. Can you believe this guy is teaching Science? What does he teach about after Eve and the apple. Here is his linkedin: Currently teaching High/Middle School Science at GCA in Westerville, Ohio. Also I stay busy doing tree trimming and tree stump grinding in the area. END of QUOTE

Genoa Christian Academy
QUOTE: As a part of the educational ministry of The Genoa Church and the first segment of Genoa Christian Academy School, our education philosophy is to present to our students, as clearly as possible, the truth about God, about life, about our world and everything in it. Also to present the Word of God as the authoritative source upon which to build a life that has purpose and meaning.END of QUOTE

harold · 6 October 2014

Charley Horse said: According to a comment made by a reader on a news article in today's Columbus Dispatch concerning Freshwater: QUOTE: He is now the Science Teacher at Genoa Christian Acc. in Geona township, when he is not grinding stumps. Can you believe this guy is teaching Science? What does he teach about after Eve and the apple. Here is his linkedin: Currently teaching High/Middle School Science at GCA in Westerville, Ohio. Also I stay busy doing tree trimming and tree stump grinding in the area. END of QUOTE Genoa Christian Academy QUOTE: As a part of the educational ministry of The Genoa Church and the first segment of Genoa Christian Academy School, our education philosophy is to present to our students, as clearly as possible, the truth about God, about life, about our world and everything in it. Also to present the Word of God as the authoritative source upon which to build a life that has purpose and meaning.END of QUOTE
He should have just been working at a Bible school from day one. But no doubt the pay and benefits package is nothing special. It's unfortunate that some people need to tell lies about science in order to feel good about their religion, but it's a free country. As long as they don't receive a dime in tax funding and no tax funded university recognizes science credits from the place, let them do what they want. I've pointed out this option to creationists many times. School attendance is mandatory, and rightfully so. However, we can never make graduation mandatory. You can always drop out or flunk out, or take courses that are worthless if you ever want to attend a secular university. Grinding stumps is good honest work.

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnKupVGX70N9ZsvLu8iScIzWpyVj8bds_Q · 6 October 2014

It’s unfortunate that some people need to tell lies about science in order to feel good about their religion, but it’s a free country. As long as they don’t receive a dime in tax funding and no tax funded university recognizes science credits from the place, let them do what they want.
Feel sorry for these kids being sold a bill of goods. It is hard to undo a bad education, but some of them will break out in spite of their ignorant parents. Private schools piss me off.

Richard B. Hoppe · 6 October 2014

That was apparently in the 2012-13 school year. He's not on Genoa Christian's faculty list now.
Charley Horse said: According to a comment made by a reader on a news article in today's Columbus Dispatch concerning Freshwater: QUOTE: He is now the Science Teacher at Genoa Christian Acc. in Geona township, when he is not grinding stumps. Can you believe this guy is teaching Science? What does he teach about after Eve and the apple. Here is his linkedin: Currently teaching High/Middle School Science at GCA in Westerville, Ohio. Also I stay busy doing tree trimming and tree stump grinding in the area. END of QUOTE Genoa Christian Academy QUOTE: As a part of the educational ministry of The Genoa Church and the first segment of Genoa Christian Academy School, our education philosophy is to present to our students, as clearly as possible, the truth about God, about life, about our world and everything in it. Also to present the Word of God as the authoritative source upon which to build a life that has purpose and meaning.END of QUOTE

TomS · 6 October 2014

IANAL, but I understand that one can file for a rehearing on denial of a writ of certiori up to 25 days.

I assume that it is quite rare for there to be a rehearing. But, after all these years, shouldn't one wait for another month or so before calling the legal case ended?

Richard B. Hoppe · 6 October 2014

I'm willing to take the risk. :) It's OVER!
TomS said: IANAL, but I understand that one can file for a rehearing on denial of a writ of certiori up to 25 days. I assume that it is quite rare for there to be a rehearing. But, after all these years, shouldn't one wait for another month or so before calling the legal case ended?

Doc Bill · 6 October 2014

As far a I know Freshwater has been out of the limelight for quite some time.

I can't imagine him making any kind of living on the "Speaker's Circuit" because he has no story to tell worth paying for. He would need to work, a term he's unfamiliar with, to pump up publicity for himself and outside of his little area there in Ohio, who would give a rat's? Freshwater is not a compelling speaker, rather a bumbling, marble-mouthed idiot who is barely literate.

Nope, I think Old John is going to hunker down, collect his social security and watch TV. That said, I wonder if he even has a place to stay. Didn't he deed his property to his lawyer, Hamilton, for payment?

W. H. Heydt · 6 October 2014

Re: JimboK...

Okay... But he'd best avoid the Galactic Council lest the first Lensman that reads his mind introduces him the the business end of a pair of deLameters. Or he could get "lucky" and run into an L2 or L3 who would simply torture him to death using his own memories of his misdeeds.

bigdakine · 6 October 2014

tedhohio said: Finally! I'm sure Freshwater and his attorney(s) will find a way to spin the SCOTUS not hearing their appeal into some backhanded victory, but the best news is he won't be teaching in public schools in Mount Vernon OH any more. I will be curious if he does land another teaching job someplace? Will he take his burn-crosses-into-students-arms tools with him? Anyone else remember Nathanial Abraham, who got fired at Woods-Hole Oceanographic a bunch of years ago. He was hired as an evolutionary biologist who, after accepting the job, disclosed that he didn't believe in evolution so couldn't do that part of his job. Last I heard he was teaching at Liberty University . . . you know Jerry Falwell's excuse for a school. Maybe Freshwater needs a reference?
I can't imagine him not getting a job in some Christian private school.

Robert Byers · 6 October 2014

This comment has been moved to The Bathroom Wall.

stevaroni · 6 October 2014

Charlie Horse said: QUOTE: He is now the Science Teacher at Genoa Christian Acc. in Geona township, when he is not grinding stumps. Genoa Christian Academy : As a part of the educational ministry of The Genoa Church ... our education philosophy is to present to our students, as clearly as possible, the truth about God, about life, about our world and everything in it. Also to present the Word of God as the authoritative source upon which to build a life that has purpose and meaning.
So he got a job teaching Biblical Science at a place that likes its Science taught Biblically, to students whose parents like it that way and don't want their kids going anywhere near heathen places like "biology" or "physics". Those kids will probably grow up to be fine, upstanding elders in their church and do low-wage, menial jobs at the tech companies founded by the aggressive science-savy children of all my tech friends. And everybody is happy.

stevaroni · 6 October 2014

When I first heard of the Freshwater case being denied cert this morning, the scene that kept playing in my head was an old American express commercial where some guy was paying for an important business lunch at an upscale eatery with his 'ordinary' credit card.

The snooty, tuxedo's waiter bring his card back to him as though he was carrying a small dead animal and announces a little too loudly, with all the disdain his voice can muster, "I'm sorry sir, but you have been... declined ".

harold · 7 October 2014

stevaroni said:
Charlie Horse said: QUOTE: He is now the Science Teacher at Genoa Christian Acc. in Geona township, when he is not grinding stumps. Genoa Christian Academy : As a part of the educational ministry of The Genoa Church ... our education philosophy is to present to our students, as clearly as possible, the truth about God, about life, about our world and everything in it. Also to present the Word of God as the authoritative source upon which to build a life that has purpose and meaning.
So he got a job teaching Biblical Science at a place that likes its Science taught Biblically, to students whose parents like it that way and don't want their kids going anywhere near heathen places like "biology" or "physics". Those kids will probably grow up to be fine, upstanding elders in their church and do low-wage, menial jobs at the tech companies founded by the aggressive science-savy children of all my tech friends. And everybody is happy.
It seems that teaching job may not have worked out either. And this would not at all be surprising. Authoritarians often mix poorly with other authoritarians. Freshwater may have thought that the lessons he was assigned were too "compromised". Also, private religious schools do not always have lower standards. They may have wanted biology taught fairly and competently, even though they're "Biblical". Or a personality prone to dividing and bullying may simply express itself in any milieu. Or, more charitably they could just have a tight budget. Wanted to expand faculty by one to help but ultimately couldn't afford to. Wingnut welfare is given to those who need it least. Freshwater doesn't have a PhD, an inheritance, a congressional pension, or any of the usual qualifications for a billionaire funded "think tank" job. (In fairness Casey Luskin only has a Master's but he also has a law degree, and he's borderline.) Snake handling churches and obscure Jesus camps just don't necessarily have the budget to pay some guy $40k a year as charity, much as they might want to. Or they might have hired him in the hopes that they would look rock star if he later won his case, and dumped him because he looked like he was going to lose; maybe dumped due to one of the lower decisions. Or they left him off the faculty list because it hasn't been updated correctly.

Richard B. Hoppe · 7 October 2014

Byers' comment has been moved to the BW, as will any more he posts on this thread.

Kim van der Linde · 7 October 2014

no no no, Freshwater will now find another minute discrepancy and file the next lawsuit.

Kevin B · 7 October 2014

W. H. Heydt said: Re: JimboK... Okay... But he'd best avoid the Galactic Council lest the first Lensman that reads his mind introduces him the the business end of a pair of deLameters. Or he could get "lucky" and run into an L2 or L3 who would simply torture him to death using his own memories of his misdeeds.
Or if the Lensman is feeling *really* nasty, there is always the option of exile to the matriarchy of Lyrane. Though having the case rejected as one entry in a long list ought to be sufficiently belittling. Not even a footnote to history....

Kevin B · 7 October 2014

Kim van der Linde said: no no no, Freshwater will now find another minute discrepancy and file the next lawsuit.
I would have thought that if the Rutherford Institute want another bite of the cherry, they're going to have to find another cherry.

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q · 7 October 2014

harold said: It's unfortunate that some people need to tell lies about science in order to feel good about their religion, but it's a free country.
It's not only science: To me Freshwater's testimonies reported here appeared creative at best but surely not true. E.g., the fridge incident.

Richard B. Hoppe · 7 October 2014

That was Kelly Hamilton, Freshwater's attorney, whose wife (he claimed) mistook the bagged Tesla coil remains for groceries and stored them in the freezer.
https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q said: It's not only science: To me Freshwater's testimonies reported here appeared creative at best but surely not true. E.g., the fridge incident.

harold · 7 October 2014

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q said:
harold said: It's unfortunate that some people need to tell lies about science in order to feel good about their religion, but it's a free country.
It's not only science: To me Freshwater's testimonies reported here appeared creative at best but surely not true. E.g., the fridge incident.
Actually that segues to a point I was going to make earlier. One major problem, persistently, for creationists in court, and sometimes elsewhere, is their failure to appear honest. I don't doubt that some otherwise very honest people are thoughtlessly science deniers, but it's very hard for anyone with even a modest amount of scientific education to be both a creationist, and honest with themselves. I would not doubt, then, that creationism attracts and selects for people who have difficulty with the truth. I don't mean deliberate, pure, self-serving con men. Freshwater clearly isn't that (some creationist figures probably are but he isn't). He apparently paid for creationist material, and would have kept his job and house just by not preaching science denial during the time when the taxpayer was paying him to teach the science curriculum. He certainly hasn't made money by being a creationist. It's a long shot that he'll do better than he would have by teaching until retirement. But he has difficulty with the truth. I don't think those of us with normal brains can understand how authoritarians experience things. I think to someone like Freshwater, his chosen ideology has to be true, and anything he says to help himself help his ideology is appropriate. He believes himself and when others objectively demonstrate his falsehoods, he doesn't feel that he has been false, he feels anger, confusion, and self-pity, and his brain immediately twists his own perception of reality into a self-serving distortion which could not fool anyone else. His camp has repeatedly stated that he was "fired for having a Bible on his desk". If he was hired by a Biblical school, he probably told his own version of events at interviews. Even fellow religious authoritarians might get annoyed later if they see that they were told something distorted. The courtroom system is imperfect in many ways, but it is very effective at catching poorly prepared liars. In fact, to be the kind of person who can lie in court and get away with it, you probably have to be the kind of person who knows you are lying and is determined to do a great job of it. The authoritarian ego of a creationist is a huge impediment to that. They also paint themselves into corners that can't be gotten out of, except by corruption (I did have some small fear that purely political right wing judges somewhere along the line might find in Freshwater's favor, law be damned, as a way to pander to allies, but that didn't happen). Freshwater wasn't arguing that Ohio should allow creationism, he was trying to deny that he taught creationism while setting himself up as a hero and martyr for teaching creationism at the same time. To be a great liar in court, you have to be able to choose a plausible, consistent lying story that isn't easily contradicted by clear evidence, and stick to it. Neither Freshwater nor any other creationist has managed that yet. It's the "consistent" part that they have real trouble with. His record shows a fractal pattern of self-contradictions and obvious mistruths. At whatever level of detail you examine it, you find an equal amount.

gnome de net · 7 October 2014

Robert Byers said:

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harold · 7 October 2014

Richard B. Hoppe said: That was Kelly Hamilton, Freshwater's attorney, whose wife (he claimed) mistook the bagged Tesla coil remains for groceries and stored them in the freezer.
https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q said: It's not only science: To me Freshwater's testimonies reported here appeared creative at best but surely not true. E.g., the fridge incident.
A good example of birds of a feather, though. According to the AU piece, Freshwater handed out creationist crap in science class, and then collected it back at the end, never allowing students to take it home. When you have someone whose instinctive, unconscious deceptiveness is at that level, what kind of a lawyer are they going to attract? I apologize if my memory of the whole thing is imperfect, but I do seem to recall that during the early, administrative hearing phase, when Kelly Hamilton was on board, shifting stories and blatant shenanigans did seem to be the order of the day. They found each other.

Tyrannosaurus · 7 October 2014

DavidK said: But Freshwater will forever remain a martyr for the cause of "religious freedom" and "freedom of speech," creationism/ID, and it was the "liberal" SCOTUS led by Roberts that has denied his path to glory.
Even worse than a "liberal" SCOTUS. Is a court full of heretic catholics! So for fundies they judges are not christians.

TomS · 7 October 2014

About telling the truth.

It is well recognized that people have difficulty in recognizing the truth, especially when it is a matter which has emotional content to them. (But even when it is a matter of no real importance.) Perhaps a really honest person realizes that and seeks the opinion of others. But that, I suggest, is an heroic degree of honesty.

I'm sure that every lawyer recognizes this in their client.

fnxtr · 7 October 2014

I was just thinking about that on the drive home today. To a creationist, anyone who "believes" evolution is either in league with, or duped by, Evil. To a scientist, anyone who can't accept reality is just wrong.

Karen S. · 8 October 2014

I will be curious if he does land another teaching job someplace? Will he take his burn-crosses-into-students-arms tools with him?
I think he should work at a tattoo parlor.

harold · 8 October 2014

TomS said: About telling the truth. It is well recognized that people have difficulty in recognizing the truth, especially when it is a matter which has emotional content to them. (But even when it is a matter of no real importance.) Perhaps a really honest person realizes that and seeks the opinion of others. But that, I suggest, is an heroic degree of honesty. I'm sure that every lawyer recognizes this in their client.
And this is important in two ways. 1) We should recognize that creationists are neither sincere seekers of the truth, nor, in the vast majority of cases, cackling Snidely Whiplash type voluntary con men. They are simply egocentric authoritarian people with massive self-serving emotional biases, who obsessively advocate for the reality they wish for. They use every trick in the book - fake credentials, irrelevant credentials, straw man misrepresentation of the other side, quotes out of context, repetition of disproven arguments as if they had not been addressed, pretending to be "neutral", bullshit verbosity to give the false impression of erudition, attempting to repeat themselves so much and so quickly that critics can't keep up, and that's just off the top of my head. But the main target of all this deception is probably their own subconscious. 2) Science is a peculiar construction; it is an organized effort to eliminate this difficulty with the truth, by mutual agreement to go by the objective evidence and appropriate logical inferences, for problems where such methods apply. A similar construction is seen in the court system, although it is by necessity less rigorous, and employs conventions such as accepting sworn testimony unless there is a reason not to. This is one of the things that attracted me to science as an undergraduate. The professor could not just make shit up and give higher grades to those who repeated their shit back to them (although this may occur to some degree in some very high level science courses where the professor can discuss their ongoing research). They could assign huge amounts of material, make up fiendishly difficult exam questions, and so on, but it was all based on objective scientific consensus at the end of the day.

John · 8 October 2014

But, Richard, what are you going to do with all your spare time?

Henry J · 8 October 2014

John said: But, Richard, what are you going to do with all your spare time?
He'll have to look for a new hobby?

Richard B. Hoppe · 8 October 2014

I've got a new gig: Long-term Care Ombudsman Associate for the Ohio Department of Aging. It'll keep me out of trouble.
Henry J said:
John said: But, Richard, what are you going to do with all your spare time?
He'll have to look for a new hobby?

Matt Young · 8 October 2014

I’ve got a new gig: Long-term Care Ombudsman Associate for the Ohio Department of Aging.

Good for you - I am sure you will be very helpful.

Richard B. Hoppe · 8 October 2014

It's purely selfish: One of these days I may wind up in a nursing home, so I'm going to get 'em straightened out before that! :)
Matt Young said:

I’ve got a new gig: Long-term Care Ombudsman Associate for the Ohio Department of Aging.

Good for you - I am sure you will be very helpful.

https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q · 8 October 2014

Richard B. Hoppe said: That was Kelly Hamilton, Freshwater's attorney, whose wife (he claimed) mistook the bagged Tesla coil remains for groceries and stored them in the freezer.
https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm-WhebH0itIDDTj06EQo2vtiF0BBqF10Q said: It's not only science: To me Freshwater's testimonies reported here appeared creative at best but surely not true. E.g., the fridge incident.
True, but how many unlikely events does one has to accept before concluding that Freshwater has some problems with the truth. Does it really matter if Freshwater told such stories himself? Who if not he could have clarified what is actually behind bizarr stories like the Dumpster diving for docs/found property incident that you've reported on.

Scott F · 8 October 2014

W. H. Heydt said: Re: JimboK... Okay... But he'd best avoid the Galactic Council lest the first Lensman that reads his mind introduces him the the business end of a pair of deLameters. Or he could get "lucky" and run into an L2 or L3 who would simply torture him to death using his own memories of his misdeeds.
Ooo… You're really, really dating yourself now. :-)

W. H. Heydt · 9 October 2014

Scott F said:
W. H. Heydt said: Re: JimboK... Okay... But he'd best avoid the Galactic Council lest the first Lensman that reads his mind introduces him the the business end of a pair of deLameters. Or he could get "lucky" and run into an L2 or L3 who would simply torture him to death using his own memories of his misdeeds.
Ooo… You're really, really dating yourself now. :-)
That would actually be if I made references to the _Skylark_ series--which, interesting in itself--was the first inter*stellar* SF ever written. He started writing the first book in 1915, though it wasn't published until 1928.

stevaroni · 10 October 2014

W. H. Heydt said: Okay... But he'd best avoid the Galactic Council lest the first Lensman that reads his mind introduces him the the business end of a pair of deLameters. Or he could get "lucky" and run into an L2 or L3 who would simply torture him to death using his own memories of his misdeeds.
I read a book once* where people were the technology to move people's consciousness in and out of bodies and into digital storage existed**. At some point some of the characters figured out that a cheap and effective way to torture people was to put them into a digital world with another copy of themselves for company. * "Altered Carbon", I think, don't quote me. ** Actually, an interesting concept, what constitutes "self" when you can put on another body like changing a shirt?

George Frederick Thomson Broadhead · 10 October 2014

Why would you loose your only House and minimum livelihood? And why is Justice so costly? A misnomer of Society! And of their prevalent slavery mentality!

George Frederick Thomson Broadhead · 10 October 2014

Religion is not for normal School classes! They are mere beliefs!

Other Science theories and origins, with logical basis, sure are! Evolution is sadly not logical! So their minds are rusting away in nonsensical thinking!

Pure logic is complete logic! Book 2 please!

rossum · 10 October 2014

How to tell if something is nonsense, in two easy steps. Step 1: Examine the original text:
George Frederick Thomson Broadhead said: Religion is not for normal School classes! They are mere beliefs! Other Science theories and origins, with logical basis, sure are! Evolution is sadly not logical! So their minds are rusting away in nonsensical thinking! Pure logic is complete logic! Book 2 please!
If it makes sense, then it makes sense and there is no need to proceed further. If it looks like nonsense, then proceed to step 2. Step 2: Disemvowel the original text:
Rlgn s nt fr nrml Schl clsss! Thy r mr blfs! thr Scnc thrs nd rgns, wth lgcl bss, sr r! vltn s sdly nt lgcl! S thr mnds r rstng wy n nnsnscl thnkng! Pr lgc s cmplt lgc! Bk 2 pls!
Does it make just as much sense when disemvoweled as it did before? If yes, then what you started with was nonsense.

cmb · 10 October 2014

rossum said: How to tell if something is nonsense, in two easy steps. Step 1: Examine the original text:
George Frederick Thomson Broadhead said: Religion is not for normal School classes! They are mere beliefs! Other Science theories and origins, with logical basis, sure are! Evolution is sadly not logical! So their minds are rusting away in nonsensical thinking! Pure logic is complete logic! Book 2 please!
If it makes sense, then it makes sense and there is no need to proceed further. If it looks like nonsense, then proceed to step 2. Step 2: Disemvowel the original text:
Rlgn s nt fr nrml Schl clsss! Thy r mr blfs! thr Scnc thrs nd rgns, wth lgcl bss, sr r! vltn s sdly nt lgcl! S thr mnds r rstng wy n nnsnscl thnkng! Pr lgc s cmplt lgc! Bk 2 pls!
Does it make just as much sense when disemvoweled as it did before? If yes, then what you started with was nonsense.
Seven exclamation marks in seven sentences could also be an indicator of nonsense.

burllamb · 10 October 2014

So, Richard

If you are going to write a book about this, have you decided if it is going to be fiction or non fiction?

I mean, this case has so many outrageous concoctions, and suggestively hilarious situations and macabre specifics - it really could be the basis for a very funny novel. Think of all the comic McGuffins:

crosses (which are not crosses?!) burned onto the arms of children

The mysteriously disappearing (frozen) Tesla coil

The laptop computer fortuitously damaged by a flood in the room above

the curiously innumerate pile of religious books on Freshwater's desk

the rather large number of times Freshwater contradicted himself - you probably have a handle on this better than anyone in the country

the self-contradictory legal arguments made over the years

the prayers which weren't prayers in a pregame huddle

(I think I have this right?) The hilarious collection of objects contained within the reappearing cardboard box of Freshwater's belongings at his school. (Wasn't there something like two compasses and a whistle - I remember the objects had a Hitchcockian flair, but I can't remember what was there and can't google the list)

I am sure I am missing many more...

Imagine what someone like Tom Robbins or J.P. Donleavey could weave out of this cloth. You could have a lot of fun with this.

stevaroni · 10 October 2014

cmb said: Seven exclamation marks in seven sentences could also be an indicator of nonsense.
Assuming, of course, that the sentences aren't trying to convey something like... "Ahhhh! I tried to set the the beehive on fire and it fell! My foot is on fire! Angry Bees! Angry bees on fire! Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit!"

Mario Fernandez · 14 October 2014

burllamb said: So, Richard If you are going to write a book about this, have you decided if it is going to be fiction or non fiction? I mean, this case has so many outrageous concoctions, and suggestively hilarious situations and macabre specifics - it really could be the basis for a very funny novel. Think of all the comic McGuffins: crosses (which are not crosses?!) burned onto the arms of children The mysteriously disappearing (frozen) Tesla coil The laptop computer fortuitously damaged by a flood in the room above the curiously innumerate pile of religious books on Freshwater's desk the rather large number of times Freshwater contradicted himself - you probably have a handle on this better than anyone in the country the self-contradictory legal arguments made over the years the prayers which weren't prayers in a pregame huddle (I think I have this right?) The hilarious collection of objects contained within the reappearing cardboard box of Freshwater's belongings at his school. (Wasn't there something like two compasses and a whistle - I remember the objects had a Hitchcockian flair, but I can't remember what was there and can't google the list) I am sure I am missing many more... Imagine what someone like Tom Robbins or J.P. Donleavey could weave out of this cloth. You could have a lot of fun with this.
Is the dumpster diving the same as that package from an anonymous source which had been retrieved by Hamilton (I think) while brandishing a gun? ...I might be mixing two cases, but I remember reading about these at roughly the same time.

fnxtr · 14 October 2014

Get the Coen brothers on it.