Freshwater: Advising Springboro creationists?

Freshwater ought to be pretty good at telling people how to flout Constitutional rights.

He doesn't seem so great at getting away with it--although that depends finally upon whether or not Ohio justices' respect for rights.

Glen Davidson

"unabashedly distort and misrepresent the record"

Translated: "Lies her ass off without flinching."

Freshwater probably wishes he had been a teacher in Springboro. Then he wouldn't have been fired for teaching creationism. Don't be surprised if he ends up working for them.

Taking a step down from Freshwater's legal team? That doesn't bode well, does it?

This may have hurt Freshwater.

The Ohio Supreme Court should decide on Freshwater based on the most rigorous legal analysis, without being biased by current events or partisan politics.

However, in my opinion, what's really happening is that they want to find in favor of Freshwater, in order to pander to fellow right wing authoritarian Republicans, but are finding it very hard to come up with a credible way to do so, in light of strong and obvious precedent.

Although they may secretly wish that Freshwater and his ilk could prance around the country promoting government-funded, rights violating denial of scientific reality, they probably realize that such an outcome would draw excessive attention to their decision, to the possible political detriment of some allies.

In short, they would like to reward Freshwater as a political fellow traveler, but they would probably like to do so quietly.

When Freshwater demonstrates the obvious - he is not going to be quiet - it may well work against him. They may decide that the political risks of finding for him outweigh the political benefits.

(In my opinion, it's obvious that the justices are mainly motivated by crass social and political considerations, rather than pure legal analysis. If that weren't so, they would not have taken this case in the first place.)

OT, but why is Sandefur's post, previously on this blog, not permitting comments?

What is this, the Discovery Institute? Let's leave censorship to the IDers.

Doesn't the Springboro local government retain counsel? I am not sure why the BOE is shopping for private sector legal representation in the first place.

Does this mean that the BOE has already consulted their 'official' legal counsel and didn't like the result???

Is it just a cost thing? They aren't using the city lawyer(s) because Liberty has offered to work their case for free?

diogeneslamp0 said: OT, but why is Sandefur's post, previously on this blog, not permitting comments? What is this, the Discovery Institute? Let's leave censorship to the IDers.

xubist said:

diogeneslamp0 said: OT, but why is Sandefur's post, previously on this blog, not permitting comments? What is this, the Discovery Institute? Let's leave censorship to the IDers.

As far as I can tell, Sandefur has never permitted comments on any of his posts. He seems to be a Libertarian. Not sure why he has posting privilieges here. [shrug]

My post from the BW:

Why the hell does Timothy Sandefur continue to get to post main page articles with no comments allowed? Why is he special?

Just Bob said: My post from the BW: Why the hell does Timothy Sandefur continue to get to post main page articles with no comments allowed? Why is he special?

Each Thumb contributor determines the commenting policy for his or her posts. Hence, there is a range from Tim's no-comments decision to, say, my more permissive regime. That's the way it's been since we founded the Thumb. So can we leave it at that, please?

Via the Sensuous Curmudgeon, we learn that Plunderbund obtained the cited documents via a public records request.

Richard B. Hoppe said: Via the Sensuous Curmudgeon, we learn that Plunderbund obtained the cited documents via a public records request.

Richard B. Hoppe said: Each Thumb contributor determines the commenting policy for his or her posts. Hence, there is a range from Tim's no-comments decision to, say, my more permissive regime. That's the way it's been since we founded the Thumb. So can we leave it at that, please?

Richard B. Hoppe said: Each Thumb contributor determines the commenting policy for his or her posts. Hence, there is a range from Tim's no-comments decision to, say, my more permissive regime. That's the way it's been since we founded the Thumb.

Here's the problem. If anyone wants to comment on a Sandefur post, whether positive, negative, or just asking a question, he has interrupt some other thread to do it! Because there IS NO Sandefur thread, just the bare post.

The impression is arrogance: "None of you have any business commenting on my profound thoughts, or any right to express an opinion different from mine."

I'll see what I can do.

Richard B. Hoppe said: I'll see what I can do.

Liberty Institute is the largest legal organization focused solely on protecting and restoring religious liberty in the United States. We offer legal assistance pro bono to help defend the religious freedoms of individuals, churches and other organizations all across the nation.

The fact that they are contracting with an outside pro bono (free) christofascist law group is also telling.

1. The school district itself must have lawyers or a legal firm.

2. The school district's insurance company must also have lawyers.

Probably both sets of lawyers have already told them it is illegal. That is what happened at Dover and why the school district was ordered to pay $2 million, one million generously waived by plaintiffs.

It's obvious that the Springboro school board could care less if they wreck the district's public education. Among the endless hates of the fundies is public education, Because it educates kids. In Orwellian fundieland:

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is education.

I don't know anything about Springboro, Ohio. Who elected these children's education nihilists and why? In my district, they would have already had a recall election and been gone.

Most likely, Springboro won't be able to pass a school district bond levy for the forseeable future.

My local district just passed one. They have declining enrollment and declining state support and needed it badly.

It barely passed. If they had christofascists on the school board, it would have failed spectacularly. Instead of voting for it, a lot of people would have campaigned against it.

"...Springboro school board couldn't care less if they wreck..."

raven said: I don't know anything about Springboro, Ohio.

So, Freshwater's advice to the Springboro board should go something like:

"I taught what I termed 'robust' evolution in my 8th grade science classes, but I actually mixed creationist sophistry with legitimate science. I also proselytized in my classroom and school by having a bible openly visible on my desk, religious posters on my classroom walls, and openly discussing my religious views with students. I showed even worse judgement by subjecting classroom volunteers to electrostatic shock via a Tesla Coil. I was such a poor instructor that a 9th grade science teacher stated she "had to reteach science to freshmen after they received improper instruction from eighth-grade teacher John Freshwater", and that my students had not "been taught evolution in a scientific manner." I was insubordinate to my school superiors about all of this, causing the district to terminate my services. I appealed this ruling and turned the whole episode into a legal affair costing the Mt. Vernon school district thousands of dollars, creating unneeded bad publicity and harsh feelings throughout the entire community. At my insistence, this debacle is still ongoing over five years later."

That's some good advice, eh?

into a legal affair costing the Mt. Vernon school district thousands of dollars, That’s some good advice, eh?

raven said:

into a legal affair costing the Mt. Vernon school district thousands of dollars, That’s some good advice, eh?

It's probably closer to costing Mt. Vernon school district a million USD up front. Among other costs, the school's insurance company settled with the Dennis family and probably raised their rates. If they didn't, they should have. Then their school bond levy votes failed. If people have a negative view of their school district, they aren't going to raise their property taxes. Even if they have a positive view, these days they often vote against bond levies. You left some other astonishing achievements out. Freshwater lost his house somewhere along the line. I don't know that he ever paid his attorney either.

harold said: These "no comments allowed" Sandefur posts make no sense at all. I can't understand why he wants to put them up in this venue. Why he's allowed to is another question, but why he wants to is what I don't get.

dornier.pfeil said:

harold said: These "no comments allowed" Sandefur posts make no sense at all. I can't understand why he wants to put them up in this venue. Why he's allowed to is another question, but why he wants to is what I don't get.

I'd like to echo what harold said. Sandefur doesn't only prevent comments here, but he refuses to allow anyone to even view his blog. Why is the Thumb so special?

diogeneslamp0 said:

Richard B. Hoppe said: Each Thumb contributor determines the commenting policy for his or her posts. Hence, there is a range from Tim's no-comments decision to, say, my more permissive regime. That's the way it's been since we founded the Thumb.

Why, "That's the way it is" is a perfectly rational explanation, Casey. I mean, Richard.

Richard B. Hoppe said: In setting up the Thumb...

raven said:

into a legal affair costing the Mt. Vernon school district thousands of dollars, That’s some good advice, eh?

It's probably closer to costing Mt. Vernon school district a million USD up front. Among other costs, the school's insurance company settled with the Dennis family and probably raised their rates. If they didn't, they should have.

Then their school bond levy votes failed. If people have a negative view of their school district, they aren't going to raise their property taxes. Even if they have a positive view, these days they often vote against bond levies.

You left some other astonishing achievements out. Freshwater lost his house somewhere along the line. I don't know that he ever paid his attorney either.

Thanks for the explanation/elaboration, Richard.

"Recall that the Panda’s Thumb is the pub of the University of Ediacara, and pubs have all sorts of people hanging around, talking and drinking beer."

And in that spirit, belaboring that metaphor, in a pub some guy doesn't walk in, spout off, and run out without the other customers being able to argue, cheer, boo, or comment on his parentage. At the least he has to hang around long enough to down his pint. And if he doesn't want to interact with the clientele, he can ignore them. But he can't shut them up, or prevent them from expressing their opinions of his opinion, even if he chooses to ignore their unenlightened babble.

Likewise, Sandefur needs to enable comments to give patrons of this 'pub' the freedom to comment. He can ignore all of them if he wants. Actually, comments are rarely directed to the poster anyway, but to other commenters, lurkers, or the world in general.

Didn't I read somewhere that the guy's a libertarian? Well, Tim, We'd like the same LIBERTY -- to express our opinions, ask questions, add useful information, or even make asinine remarks -- that other posters give us!

I've been reading the Thumb since it's first year. There WAS a time when Sandefur allowed comments on his posts.

He is very defensive though, and not willing to actually debate his ideas, even in this format.

trust me, he isn't worth the effort. Just ignore him.

man, I only do that on the internet, never while typing a paper or similar... weird.

it's->its

ugh.

The impression is arrogance: “None of you have any business commenting on my profound thoughts, or any right to express an opinion different from mine.”

For the record, I cannot access Sandefur's blog. If I go to the link I am told I am not "invited". If others who are not aware of having been invited can, I assume it's actually a question of certain url's being blocked, rather than "invitation". My interactions with Sandefur were minimal when he did allow comments, but I assume I must have "questioned Libertarianism" or some such thing. I have complained about his comment policy a few times since then.

WARNING: As may have been learned from the examples of various trolls, when a person persists in an emotion driven pattern of behavior and refuses to listen to feedback, embarrassment may result.

Granted, so far, Timothy Sandefur has not directly associated this blog with material of a strongly embarrassing nature, as far as I know. Furthermore, this isn't an economics blog, nor directly a politics blog, and his views on economics and politics are to some degree irrelevant.

However, I would personally recommend that other contributors keep track of what is on his private blog, as that is linked, at least for some eyes, to this blog.

RBH: No, several levies passed during the three years of the Freshwater affair, including renewals and one for new money just this year.

RBH 2009 PT Yesterday voters in the Mt. Vernon City School District passed a renewal of an operating levy by a 61%-39% margin. and RBH 2011 PT In addition, a 1.38 mill emergency levy for the school district passed.

I've recommended before, I think, that we establish a protocol that comments to Sandefur's posts be submitted to the prior thread. Maybe that's not fair to whoever posted the prior thread, but WE aren't allowed to speak to the Great Sandefur, so maybe someone with thread originating privileges can. Maybe having his thread hijacked with comments to the Great Sandefur's posts will motivate SOMEONE to, you know, clean up the chickenshit around here.

Flint said: I've recommended before, I think, that we establish a protocol that comments to Sandefur's posts be submitted to the prior thread. Maybe that's not fair to whoever posted the prior thread, but WE aren't allowed to speak to the Great Sandefur, so maybe someone with thread originating privileges can. Maybe having his thread hijacked with comments to the Great Sandefur's posts will motivate SOMEONE to, you know, clean up the chickenshit around here.