Some Neil Shubin video

Thanks! I loved "Your Inner Fish" and I'm reading "the Universe Within" now.

inb4 "lines of reasoning"

Wow, what a coincidence that fossil is!

It's coincidence all the way down, too, for the "new science" of ID.

Glen Davidson

The Hokeae Pokeae Roseae

Ya put your half fin in,

ya put your half hand out,

ya put your half fin in,

and ya mutate all about.

Iso'late yer populations,

and ya speciate around,

that's what it's all about.

LOL!

Since booby Byers showed up here, it should be known that that old fraud Duane Gish died 2 days ago. Here's a guy with a PhD in organic chemistry who spent his entire career peddling YEC nonsense. As was said about Civil War general Henry Halleck, Gish was a vast emptiness surrounded by an education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duane_Gish

SLC said: Since booby Byers showed up here, it should be known that that old fraud Duane Gish died 2 days ago.

Forgive me for hoping that he found forgiveness.

Dave Luckett said: Forgive me for hoping that he found forgiveness.

Oh, certainly. The one necessarily implies the other.

There's a rumor that Duane Gish suddenly recanted creationism on his deathbed, and died a happy and intellectually honest man.

It's interesting that Robert Byers commented on this thread. I saw a comment somewhere else that pointed out that most of what professional creationists do is declare that popular media things that mention evolution are wrong. There are people insane enough to pay Casey Luskin to do that. It's also mostly what the amateur creationists do. That and rush to the defense of "big name" ID/creationists.

harold said: There's a rumor that Duane Gish suddenly recanted creationism on his deathbed, and died a happy and intellectually honest man.

Eventually, Dave, eventually. First, realization about how much damage he did to American science education, then forgiveness.

I am saddened to think that for 40 years he misled people, spreading falsehoods, for righteousness sake in the name of the religion he so fervently believed in. People who lie to promote their religion which is supposed to espouse truthfulness - only possible if truth is not some Absolute property of the Universe, but a concept invented and defined by Man, twisted to evil use by those with darkness in their hearts, and used for good by those with virtue in their hearts.

What lasting damage has he done? Time will tell.

What lasting good will we leave behind?

Just Bob said:

harold said: There's a rumor that Duane Gish suddenly recanted creationism on his deathbed, and died a happy and intellectually honest man.

I heard that! I believe it was a Mrs. Hope, a distant relative of his, who was with him in those last hours who reported his final doubts about his life's work.

I suspect that heaven and hell, if they exist, would alike consist of the sensations of others as they experienced the consequences of one's own actions. But this is wandering far afield.

Karen S. said: Perhaps a visit to purgatory would be in order.

Dave Luckett said: But this is wandering far afield.

Shubin's Your Inner Fish is one of my favorite popular level science books. Looking forward to reading The Universe Within.

Regarding Duane "Galloping" Gish, sympathies for his immediate family. This said, in many ways Gish was no better than the creationist Dover Pennsylvania school board members Bill Buckingham and Alan Bonsell that were caught lying under oath. Here's a 1988 debate in which Gish's fibs were blatantly exposed in front of a largely creationist audience.

Rikki_Tikki_Taalik said: inb4 "lines of reasoning"

It's really a damned shame about Gish. I mean, there are two possibilities.
1) That nothing he believed in (religion-wise) was real and he wasted his life.
2) That heaven/god is real and he's going to be punished for all eternity for breaking the commandments and spreading lies to promote truth.

Either way, his life was wasted and that's what is a shame.

stevaroni said:

Dave Luckett said: But this is wandering far afield.

Personally, I like Terry Prachett's version of the afterlife.

Tenncrain said: ... This said, in many ways Gish was no better than the creationist Dover Pennsylvania school board members Bill Buckingham and Alan Bonsell that were caught lying under oath. Here's a 1988 debate in which Gish's fibs were blatantly exposed in front of a largely creationist audience.

It's a conundrum, Mike. Giving crackpots attention gives them the one thing they most desperately want. Ignoring them not only provokes shrill cries that scientists refuse to debate them on what they are pleased to call "evidence", but it also has the same results as ignoring termites.

I confess I don't know the answer.

Mike Elzinga said:

Tenncrain said: ... This said, in many ways Gish was no better than the creationist Dover Pennsylvania school board members Bill Buckingham and Alan Bonsell that were caught lying under oath. Here's a 1988 debate in which Gish's fibs were blatantly exposed in front of a largely creationist audience.

I think I have mentioned before on this forum that Gish used to show up unannounced in the biology class rooms in Kalamazoo, Michigan and harass the biology teachers in front of their students. This was back in the 1960s when he was working at the Upjohn Company (Upjohn was later bought out by Pharmacea which, in turn was bought out by Pfizer). One of my good friends was a multi award winning biology teacher who also included evolution in her course; and she came in for some particularly harsh harassment from Gish. My last conversation with her was a few weeks before she died of cancer; and in that conversation, the pain of those encounters with Gish was still very evident, even though those events had occurred nearly forty years earlier. Gish was one cruel bastard with biology teachers. Gish’s “people” and their churches are still politically active in the area; they have now turned their adulation toward Ken Ham. But there is no question that Gish and Morris did tremendous damage before the science community got organized and started taking them down. Debating the creationists gave them far more leverage and “credibility” than they ever deserved; or earned on their own.

Dave Luckett said: It's a conundrum, Mike. Giving crackpots attention gives them the one thing they most desperately want. Ignoring them not only provokes shrill cries that scientists refuse to debate them on what they are pleased to call "evidence", but it also has the same results as ignoring termites. I confess I don't know the answer.

harold said: He did this on Upjohn Company time?

Dave Luckett said: It's a conundrum, Mike. Giving crackpots attention gives them the one thing they most desperately want. Ignoring them not only provokes shrill cries that scientists refuse to debate them on what they are pleased to call "evidence", but it also has the same results as ignoring termites. I confess I don't know the answer.

Bhakti Niskama Shanta said: Does Current Biology have the Misfortune of Owning an Unreliable Clock? http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin/2013/04/20/does-current-biology-have-the-misfortune-of-owning-an-unreliable-clock/