Freshwater: Terminated

Finally. Now I'm sure we can all put this sorry affair behind us. I'm sure that Freshwater will not pull some thing else to prolong this fiasco. I'm sure he will take the decision like a man and accept that he was wrong. I'm sure that he will finally see that it was the will of god that he get fired all along, or else he would never have been fired. I'm sure there will be no more little black boxes and mysterious phone calls. It's over, done, finished. I hope.

What? Thompson voted No??? I can't believe that the school board attorney allowed him to vote and that he actually voted no. After the referee agreed with them!

what???? said: What? Thompson voted No??? I can't believe that the school board attorney allowed him to vote and that he actually voted no. After the referee agreed with them!

Does his voting leave the school board open for further litigation?

I guess I should have added "or future" litigation.

I thought Steve Thompson would not be allowed to vote because of his connection to the Community Council for Free Expression. I thought when he ran for school board he said he wasn't doing it to benefit Mr Freshwater.
I am surprised that he would go against the hearing referee, even though not binding. I would think it would open up more chances for legal action against them. He was on a committee that raises money to help Freshwater fight the school, the referee agreed with the original decision by the board. He goes against this decision and is the sole person to vote NOT to terminate. How can he be acting in the best interest of the school?

Couldn't have happened to a more sorry excuse for a "science teacher."

He'll be martyr on the same order as Crockpot and Sternberg, who found that scientists were in fact prejudiced against the misuse of science.

Glen Davidson

Sliced,
Diced,
And Canned.

Well, what will we do now?

I feel kinda bad for the guy. I think he was trying to do some good. I don't think of him as a "hucktster" like I think of the ID "fellows" or the Ken Ham type carnival barkers. Then on the other hand, who knows. Maybe he's a wannabe huckster who can't quite cut the huckster mustard.

what??? said: I thought Steve Thompson would not be allowed to vote because of his connection to the Community Council for Free Expression.

I thought when he ran for school board he said he wasn't doing it to benefit Mr Freshwater.

I am surprised that he would go against the hearing referee, even though not binding. I would think it would open up more chances for legal action against them.

He was on a committee that raises money to help Freshwater fight the school, the referee agreed with the original decision by the board. He goes against this decision and is the sole person to vote NOT to terminate. How can he be acting in the best interest of the school?

seabiscuit said: Does his voting leave the school board open for further litigation?

RBH said: Freshwater: Terminated Expelled

Another "victim" to add to the Expelled list. They will just forget to mention the reasons that the guy was terminated.

Would a religious schools insurance allow hiring someone with Freshwater's record?

The Founding Mothers said:

RBH said: Freshwater: Terminated Expelled

There. Fixed ;)

Unless the Board vote was public, it's a strong (but probably safe) assumption that Thompson voted to retain Freshwater. It may have been any of the other board members, in a fit of divine perspiration.

Richard, thanks for the continued updates. I guess Freshwater is out of financial backing to risk going through further legal recourse, and as Hamilton has already screwed everything he can out of him, R Kelly'll be unlikely to hang around for more humiliation. Any further insight on this?

RBH said:

seabiscuit said: Does his voting leave the school board open for further litigation?

Who's going to bring suit? Surely not the side that prevailed in the vote.

mountvernon1805, a sometime commenter here, has put up videos of pertinent parts of the Board of Education meeting. I haven't watched them yet to see if they're complete.

I anxiously await a document that details the consequences of Freshwater's actions:

1) lost his job/career as public school teachr, check
2) (paid by insurance) about $1M in damages, check
3) out of pocket/legal expenses?
4) farm?
5) lost wages/pension?

it's not just schadenfreude, I believe it is important that future Freshwater wannabe's realize the stakes of the table they are playing at. Maybe take a job at a religious school to begin with? or run a ministry some way that doesn't involve taxpayer dollars/ public school time? whatever - as long as they are NOT IN MY KIDS' SCHOOL

Does this mean PT will finally stop talking about the pathetic little twit?

The Columbus Dispatch has a story here.

Cost to the Mt. Vernon School system: $902,765, most of that to their lawyer. $35,749 went to the referee. Court reporting costs were $45,747! (That's the making of transcripts of all the testimony.)

Somebody asked if Freshwater can appeal. Yes, if he does, the next step would be the Knox County Court of Common Pleas (that's the standard place for an appeal of an administrative decision).

Congratulations RBH. Thanks for your great job in covering this. I hope we can finally put this behind us.

Ahcuah said: The Columbus Dispatch has a story here. Cost to the Mt. Vernon School system: $902,765, most of that to their lawyer. $35,749 went to the referee. Court reporting costs were $45,747! (That's the making of transcripts of all the testimony.) [snip]

Thompson said that he had recused himself from deliberations on the federal litigation (though not from administrative hearing deliberations) on advice from attorneys David Millstone and Sarah Moore (as had Barone), and he wanted to know what was different that allowed Barone to withdraw her self-recusal regarding administrative hearing matters.

eric said: If I'm reading this right, you are saying Thompson recused himself from A but not B, then complained when another board member recused themselves from A but not B?

Richard: For all of us that followed your many posts on this sordid affair, thank you for your indefatigable and detailed efforts!

Dennett: Religion is the best vehicle ever invented for social conflicts.

I wonder how divided Mt. Vernon is by now? Religion is always a good way to divide people as we've seen in the past and recently.

IIRC, Dover even today is still divided between fundies and moderates.

And where will the fundie death cultists strike next? We all know there will be a next time.

Maybe it will be La Sierra University in SoCal. The Seventh Days have spent a few years trying to organize a witch hunt against evolutionists without making too much progress.

RBH said: mountvernon1805, a sometime commenter here, has put up videos of pertinent parts of the Board of Education meeting. I haven't watched them yet to see if they're complete.

http://www.mediafire.com/?m3utnmmkde0

I agree with Mr Thompson on one thing: actions DO speak louder than words!!

ted lawry said: Does this mean PT will finally stop talking about the pathetic little twit?

Another "victim" to add to the Expelled list. They will just forget to mention the reasons that the guy was terminated.

— Ron Okimoto

I'll add another congratulation to RBH for doing the heavy lifting reporting the whole mess.

As for what Freshwater does next...Yes, so far as we can tell, he lacks resources to continue making a nuisance of himself. On the other hand, he can now hit the lecture circuit and raise money from the fundamentalists as a "martyr" to their cause. That could--entirely too easily--provide enough to mount an appeal.

Whether he'd use Hamilton some more or not is an open question. He might even be able to find another lawyer who would take a contingency case to go after Hamilton for failing to represent him properly.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

This is just another annoyance, a little pothole if you will, in the never ending efforts of the religious right/creationists efforts to theocratize this country in their own image.

Richard-

I just thought you should know that people are congratulating you for your coverage on this all over the blogosphere.

I've noted congrats from Coyne's blog, PZ's, Orac's, and in general comments in many other places.

I do hope you consider somehow turning this into a smallish book?

You deserve some compensation for all the time and effort you put into this, AND for your tireless efforts on behalf of education in general in Ohio.

RBH said:

eric said: If I'm reading this right, you are saying Thompson recused himself from A but not B, then complained when another board member recused themselves from A but not B?

That's correct, with the added fillip that the second board member--Barone--was advised that she did not have an ethical issue with either A or B, while the first board member--Thompson--was advised by counsel that he did have an ethical issue with A. I don't what advice, if any, was given him about B.

Suggested titles..

"Watergate"

wait...

:P

Ichthyic said: Suggested titles.. "Watergate" wait... :P

Freshwater Over the Damned.

btw, may I recommend that a contents thread of all of the related Freshwater threads be stickied on the side of the site for a while, at least?

there are so many threads on freshwater here over the last couple of years, the search engine is incapable of pulling up the list without timing out. I've tried to link to a list for people asking from other sites, and it is no longer possible to do so.

Seriously, I think it important that people be able to see Richard's coverage from beginning to end, and currently on PT, there is no easy way to do that!

...example:

over on the right side, are tag lists, but they don't include Freshwater.

just add Freshwater to the tag list!

grr.

no, even the categories section only includes stuff that goes back a few months at most.

seriously, a link that includes all of Richard's posts on Freshwater from the beginning would be VERY useful.

Frank J said:

Another "victim" to add to the Expelled list. They will just forget to mention the reasons that the guy was terminated.

— Ron Okimoto

The DI has taken pains to keep him off their list of martyrs, apparently because he undermines their "ID is not creationism" chant. Any bets as to whether they will break their silence now?

I agree with Ichthyic, especially since RBH isn't going to be writing Indiana Freshwater and the Cross of Doom; people should have access to his excellent and tireless work.

I would also like to add a note of appreciation for RBH and his fantastic coverage of this story.

Ichthyic said: btw, may I recommend that a contents thread of all of the related Freshwater threads be stickied on the side of the site for a while, at least? there are so many threads on freshwater here over the last couple of years, the search engine is incapable of pulling up the list without timing out. I've tried to link to a list for people asking from other sites, and it is no longer possible to do so. Seriously, I think it important that people be able to see Richard's coverage from beginning to end, and currently on PT, there is no easy way to do that!

Richard, I'd like to add my thanks also for your coverage (and commentary). I sincerely hope people will learn from this how much it damages a school system and it's community, the pain it inflicts on people to teach religion in the place of science in our public schools.

RBH,

You rock! Thanks for all your work.

Clicking “Freshwater” in the tag list/cloud gets them.

Good, but I think it still should have its own category on the right side of the page, and a permanent link set up for future reference.

cheers

Ichthyic said: Clicking “Freshwater” in the tag list/cloud gets them. Good, but I think it still should have its own category on the right side of the page, and a permanent link set up for future reference. cheers

RBH said:

seabiscuit said: Does his voting leave the school board open for further litigation?

Who's going to bring suit? Surely not the side that prevailed in the vote.

The best thing about the Freshwater case for me was connecting with some great people, like Laurie Lebo and Dick, finding out there are some great scientific minds in Mt. Vernon (regardless of the fundi presence) and learning about this website. Thank you, Dick! I always looked forward to reading all of the summaries you provided and the great talks from where the hearing was held to your truck. Thank you, Laurie, I couldn't put the Devil in Dover down once I started reading it and thoroughly enjoyed your presentation at Kenyon for Dick's class and thank you to all who posted. I value science so much more and now get to enjoy the intelligent discussion I am able to see on this site!

But the part of this experience I value the most was having the opportunity to support the Dennis's who I respect for taking a difficult stand in this small town that didn't give them much support and, yet, they followed through to the end. I have admired their strength and courage just as I admired those families that stood for what was right in Dover. We all benefit from their stand.

DS said: Finally. Now I'm sure we can all put this sorry affair behind us. I'm sure that Freshwater will not pull some thing else to prolong this fiasco. I'm sure he will take the decision like a man and accept that he was wrong. I'm sure that he will finally see that it was the will of god that he get fired all along, or else he would never have been fired. I'm sure there will be no more little black boxes and mysterious phone calls. It's over, done, finished. I hope.

386sx said: I feel kinda bad for the guy. I think he was trying to do some good. I don't think of him as a "hucktster" like I think of the ID "fellows" or the Ken Ham type carnival barkers. Then on the other hand, who knows. Maybe he's a wannabe huckster who can't quite cut the huckster mustard.

SqueakyRat said: How do you cut mustard, anyway?

Or an axe.

Thank you very much for the hard work, Mister Hoppe! Were that it had not been necessary...

I shall await the book eagerly, should one result.

The MadPanda, FCD

Thank you so much, RBH, for your dedication during this seemingly endless saga. It was like reading "The Devil in Dover" a couple of pages at a time. It is too bad that both tales are true stories.

I should note that RBH is the second "Hoppe" that I have developed great respect for...the first being the late Art Hoppe, long time columnist for the San Francisco _Chronicle_.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

W. H. Heydt said: I should note that RBH is the second "Hoppe" that I have developed great respect for...the first being the late Art Hoppe, long time columnist for the San Francisco _Chronicle_. --W. H. Heydt Old Used Programmer

Mr. Freshwater has stood for the truth that was taught since the 1600's in schools in America. In schools before 1963, the Bible was read and prayers were made to the Almighty God. It was an integral part of our history. Basic Christian thought and teaching was central in all public schools. Atheism has now taken control for the most part and led our public schools down the road to depravity, leaving our society with huge crime rates, full prisons, and an anti-christ attitude among many.
Many in this blog display their glee at the removal of Freshwater and think this will be the last of it. I beg to differ. In the court of heaven, when your life is over, each of us will stand before God to give account of our actions. This incident will come up again, only the truth will reign, not man's opinion. The school board and teachers and principle will stand before their Creator to give account for what they did. My prayer is that they recognize their error before that time.

"Nehemiah Scudder for President!"

DMR said: Mr. Freshwater has stood for the truth that was taught since the 1600's in schools in America. In schools before 1963, the Bible was read and prayers were made to the Almighty God. It was an integral part of our history. Basic Christian thought and teaching was central in all public schools. Atheism has now taken control for the most part and led our public schools down the road to depravity, leaving our society with huge crime rates, full prisons, and an anti-christ attitude among many. Many in this blog display their glee at the removal of Freshwater and think this will be the last of it. I beg to differ. In the court of heaven, when your life is over, each of us will stand before God to give account of our actions. This incident will come up again, only the truth will reign, not man's opinion. The school board and teachers and principle will stand before their Creator to give account for what they did. My prayer is that they recognize their error before that time.

DS said:

DMR said: Mr. Freshwater has stood for the truth that was taught since the 1600's in schools in America. In schools before 1963, the Bible was read and prayers were made to the Almighty God. It was an integral part of our history. Basic Christian thought and teaching was central in all public schools. Atheism has now taken control for the most part and led our public schools down the road to depravity, leaving our society with huge crime rates, full prisons, and an anti-christ attitude among many. Many in this blog display their glee at the removal of Freshwater and think this will be the last of it. I beg to differ. In the court of heaven, when your life is over, each of us will stand before God to give account of our actions. This incident will come up again, only the truth will reign, not man's opinion. The school board and teachers and principle will stand before their Creator to give account for what they did. My prayer is that they recognize their error before that time.

Well then, in that case presumably Freshwater will stand before god as well. He broke the law, He endangered his students. He cheated =his students of the education they deserved. He has a lot of explaining to do. I don't think god will be pleased with him. Why are you?