Parenting Beyond Belief Author and the Creationist Teacher

What faintly raises the hair on the back of my neck about McGowan's adventures with Mr. Taylor is the sense that this is an opening act of a story very similar to the one whose presumably closing acts are being documented here by RBH relative to the unfortunate (in many senses of the word) Mr. Freshwater.

This can't end well.

Colorado Citizens for Science has run a case study here. We also advised the parent to contact NCSE. We do not know how the case turned out.

Interesting case study, Matt.
I wonder, could the teacher's contact at the JPL be someone named Coppedge?

Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.
Trying to stop or punish a teacher from this seems as far from America as one can get.
Trying to turn teachers into just parrots of some teachers outline for a class undercuts every idea to get the student to think and question any thing in the world where their own insights and reason can be employed.
In Canada here we were taught as kids to think. To draw our own conclusions and not just memorize 'facts'.
I'm sure this teacher is within the rules.
it demonstrates here that there is a bigger agenda to eradicate even whisps of shadows of doubt or denial of evolutionism.
Worthy of the great attempts of empires and movements of yore.
I as a creationist say PLEASE continue.
I know Americans.
Persecution of common beliefs by the state or the use of the state grabs attention where otherwise there is apathy.
This is welcome.

Hi Robert, it is sooo comfortable to have your support in out struggle for anarchic education. If a teacher firmly believes in flying saucers, abductions and that the space aliens are responsible for creating life on Earth; why should he not be allowed to teach that?

Americans and Canadians, why don't you demand, NOW! that all teachers be allowed to teach the truth as they see it?

A science teacher is employed to teach science and not rubbish. Any science teacher who teaches creationism has broken his/her contract and needs discipline and perhaps the sack.

Sincerity of belief's does not come into it

Robert Byers said: Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

I'm sure this teacher is within the rules.

1.6

Nothing new here. Just the same old drivel. The truth as I see it is that Byers is a broken record playing a worn out song full lo lies. Probably the product of one of those misguided proselytizing teachers.

Robert Byers ironically said: In Canada here we were taught as kids to think.

In Canada here we were taught as kids to think.

Robert Byers said: Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

I'm sure this teacher is within the rules.

A creationist science teacher?

What next?

An illiterate English literature teacher?

A tetraplegic gym instructor?

Robert Byers, as a fellow Canadian I have to say I am ashamed of you.

You and Densye make us look like Arkansas North.

Please stop bothering the nice Americans. Go play hockey now.

Terenzio the Troll said: A creationist science teacher? What next? An illiterate English literature teacher? A tetraplegic gym instructor?

So far McGowan is handling it well, emailing the teacher first (he’s using email to retain a record of the interaction)

Robert Byers said: In Canada here we were taught as kids to think. To draw our own conclusions and not just memorize 'facts'.

harold said: Unfortunately, creationist slogans probably do not represent sincere beliefs in the usual sense of the word. They are deliberate "fighting words" - as, in general, are any memorized propaganda slogans. It isn't a behavior that a direct, polite interaction is likely to change.

I think Dale is doing a fantastic job. Hopefully, a tactful and measured set of approaches will result in a quick resolution to this. But most of all (and most importantly), thank goodness, his son has changed classes. That Conner has switched classes should also be a strong signal to others that there is a problem with 'Mr. Taylor's' teaching.

fnxtr said: Robert Byers, as a fellow Canadian I have to say I am ashamed of you. You and Densye make us look like Arkansas North. Please stop bothering the nice Americans. Go play hockey now.

I asked a community college teacher if she had students who had issues with evolution. She replied "I tell them I teach the curriculum whatever I feel; they are to learn it."

I suddenly realized she doesn't agree with evolution. How does anybody get enough biology education to teach in college and still feels that way? I was frankly shocked, but as long as she's teaching the science properly I guess it's okay.

My high school biology course began with amoebas and worked up, in order of appearance. Our biology teacher was allowed to discuss evolution (or reproduction above the worm) explicitly but we got the gist of it. One student asked didn't the order of appearance indicate evolution? and the teacher wouldn't answer. None of the students, as far as I know, were going to a creationist church. It seems to me a good text book (if any exist nowadays) can teach evolution implicitly.

I totally love Neil Tyson's response to another similar controversy. Paraphrasing, he said the issue is not the separation of church and state. The real issue is the separation of the scientifically illiterate from the ranks of science teachers.

fnxtr said: Robert Byers, as a fellow Canadian I have to say I am ashamed of you.

US of A doesn’t have a copyright on nutburgers.

harold said: I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

harold said: MrG -

US of A doesn’t have a copyright on nutburgers.

I'm half Canadian and can guarantee that this is true. The US political system is more dominated by nuttiness, but Canada has a solid contingent. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

Robert Byers said: Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

I don't care how deluded a teacher is, he has no right to teach fraud in science classes.

Trying to stop or punish a teacher from this seems as far from America as one can get. Trying to turn teachers into just parrots of some teachers outline for a class undercuts every idea to get the student to think and question any thing in the world where their own insights and reason can be employed.

If you go to a Christian church, then you are being totally hypocritical.

In Canada here we were taught as kids to think. To draw our own conclusions and not just memorize 'facts'. I'm sure this teacher is within the rules. it demonstrates here that there is a bigger agenda to eradicate even whisps of shadows of doubt or denial of evolutionism.

But where are the logical and empirical reasons for those doubts and denials? All I see from Creationists like you are lies and fallacies.

Worthy of the great attempts of empires and movements of yore. I as a creationist say PLEASE continue. I know Americans. Persecution of common beliefs by the state or the use of the state grabs attention where otherwise there is apathy. This is welcome.

People are always free to teach Christian and even Creationist dogma in churches. So your argument is pointless.

harold said: MrG -

US of A doesn’t have a copyright on nutburgers.

I'm half Canadian and can guarantee that this is true. The US political system is more dominated by nuttiness, but Canada has a solid contingent. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

Terenzio the Troll said: A creationist science teacher? What next? An illiterate English literature teacher? A tetraplegic gym instructor?

Please continue to follow this on "Panda's Thumb". At some point this parent is going to need support to carry this thru. School Systems protect their own.

phantomreader42 said: I'd say a creationist science teacher is closer to...a drug dealer running the D.A.R.E. assemblies...

I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

veritas36 said: I asked a community college teacher if she had students who had issues with evolution. She replied "I tell them I teach the curriculum whatever I feel; they are to learn it." I suddenly realized she doesn't agree with evolution. How does anybody get enough biology education to teach in college and still feels that way? I was frankly shocked, but as long as she's teaching the science properly I guess it's okay.

Interesting case study, Matt. I wonder, could the teacher's contact at the JPL be someone named Coppedge?

Karen S. said:

I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

There are nuts all over, but here in the US the nuts chase the squirrels.

In the earlier days of “scientific” creationism, creationist leaders spent most of their time and effort in concocting ludicrous caricatures of science.

The truth as I see it:

Ancient astronauts brought cosmic evil via meteors which were made into the stone tablets of the Old Testament. They returned in the form of the Christian sect to spread biological warfare which destroyed our nervous systems. Therefore, all Bible-believing evangelical Christians are servants of ancient evil, killing our souls and and bodies. That's how the world as we knw it came about.

I am very grateful that Robert Byers will support me teaching the truth as I know it in a public science class.

harold said: But the idea of some ignoramus shooting off his mouth that he knows better about science than the people who put a man on the moon, discovered antibiotics, etc - I honestly can't say I was aware of much of that before 1999.

the stone tablets of the Old Testament.

As the parent, Mr. McGowan, is no longer the parent of one of "Mr. Taylor's" students, I doubt that he can expect any more replies, regardless of how they are phrased.

"Mr. Taylor" is obviously lying about hs lack of time to provide Mr. McGowan with the classroom materials- how could he find time to meet at a Starbucks for a discussion? (I don't think that time really stops in a Starbucks, but I admit I have never been in one).

I'm sure that Dale will handle this well, but I do not recommend writing this sort of letter to a teacher, or in many cases, contacting the teacher first. This is a pretty clear cut case. Bringing the administration in immediately would be reasonable. And, a letter that asks questions of the material taught in class will likely not get anywhere, for various reasons. See: http://tinyurl.com/26k8x9y

This particular case may well be one that the NCSE would be very very interested in.

I think Mr. McGowan has made terminal errors already. First, have your kid collect as much classroom materials as posible.

Second, if you are using your real name, don't blog about how clever you are going to be at uncovering the closeted creationist. Even creationists can Google.

I am sure that any offending creationst materials have been removed by now.

Gary is right.

You must be devious in dealing with creationists

You must be devious in dealing with creationists

harold, i wish to add to my public JHS science class some exciting facts I've just learned from David Ickes. Did you know Kent Hovind was really a lizard, and a descendent of Queen Elizabeth I?

Greg, the specifics might be make that not so for this one, but in general, aren't parent queries, then complaints, crucial to correcting deliberate mis-teaching behavior?

In the Freshwater case, without Zach Dennis' parents' complaint, Freshwater would still be turning out generations of "Here!" shouters.

Actually I went to Greg's link and I understand what he's saying now. My only quibble is, won't it often be seen as bad faith to go over the teacher's head immediately?

There are far-right Christian colleges giving degrees in "science education" and "school administration." They pass them out like candy if you are a good, hard right religious freak.

There is a real possibility if you have a creationist "science teacher," there is a creationist administrator protecting them.

My wife and I had a recent chat with two high school science teachers from Laguna Beach Ca, who said that they were pressured by their department chairman, and their school principal, to minimize teaching evolution, and present creationist alternatives.

Gary:

The Kitzmiller v. Dover case (as well as Edwards v. Aguillard which is actually the law of the land) would almost certainly be cited as precedent if those teachers were to say that legally they can't minimize teaching evolution or present creationist alternatives. That's why people go through the money and trouble of winning those cases - to provide cover for teachers, who can point to the court rulings and say they have to follow them. Then an administrator has to advocate breaking the law.

Part 2 is now up. At the risk of stealing Mr. McGowan's thunder, the summary is:
Mr. McGowan repeats request for transparency; teacher responds by saying he's too busy to send it but would meet to discuss it over coffee.

Uh oh. In my experience, good teachers like email, packaged handouts, and written assignments because too often students, um, 'creatively misinterpret' oral instructions. The fact that this teacher does not want to discuss an assignment or provide class material over email is a pretty bad sign.

eric said: Part 2 is now up. At the risk of stealing Mr. McGowan's thunder, the summary is: Mr. McGowan repeats request for transparency; teacher responds by saying he's too busy to send it but would meet to discuss it over coffee. Uh oh. In my experience, good teachers like email, packaged handouts, and written assignments because too often students, um, 'creatively misinterpret' oral instructions. The fact that this teacher does not want to discuss an assignment or provide class material over email is a pretty bad sign.

AAAAGGH!! It's like a cliffhanger in the season finale of some drama show (or maybe a comedy.) C'mon! I can't wait for October and the 2-hour season opener! Give me the update!!!

In all serious though, great job Mr. McGowan! Really well done!

Slightly OT, but I think this Freshwater-like, "secret handout" style deception is going to die out. In the future, I think departments and schools are going to push for more freely available curricula. Not because of this particular issue, but because of much more mundane issues like getting kids to do their homework, demonstrating to parents that the school is doing their job, assisting students who may be home sick, cost of pdfs vs. paper textbooks, etc...

Not that this helps Mr. McGowan and people in his situation today, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if 20 years from now practically every H.S. class had a web site and posting all materials and assignments to that page was the de facto standard. And while I empathize with the teachers who will have to deal with the inevitable over-management and armchair quarterbacking that goes along with this transparency, overall I see it as a good thing.

My kids just started kindergarten and I've started thinking (dreading) about the above possibilities. I started looking at Nebraska's science standards and found this:

http://ncse.com/news/2010/06/evolution-nebraska-005573

Not to mention my sons will already start learning about the scientific method in kindergarten! Hopefully this will continue thoughout their education.

Randy said: I started looking at Nebraska's science standards and found this ...

eric said: Part 2 is now up. (snip)

Gary Hurd said: There are far-right Christian colleges giving degrees in "science education" and "school administration." They pass them out like candy if you are a good, hard right religious freak. There is a real possibility if you have a creationist "science teacher," there is a creationist administrator protecting them. My wife and I had a recent chat with two high school science teachers from Laguna Beach Ca, who said that they were pressured by their department chairman, and their school principal, to minimize teaching evolution, and present creationist alternatives.

WKM said:

Gary Hurd said: My wife and I had a recent chat with two high school science teachers from Laguna Beach Ca, who said that they were pressured by their department chairman, and their school principal, to minimize teaching evolution, and present creationist alternatives.

Did you advise the teachers about resisting that irrational pressure? WKM

Oh, we also mentioned that there are local chapters of the ACLU, and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

harold said: MrG -

US of A doesn’t have a copyright on nutburgers.

I'm half Canadian and can guarantee that this is true. The US political system is more dominated by nuttiness, but Canada has a solid contingent. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that there are some nuts in the UK as well.

Marion Delgado said: The truth as I see it: Ancient astronauts brought cosmic evil via meteors which were made into the stone tablets of the Old Testament. They returned in the form of the Christian sect to spread biological warfare which destroyed our nervous systems. Therefore, all Bible-believing evangelical Christians are servants of ancient evil, killing our souls and and bodies. That's how the world as we knw it came about. I am very grateful that Robert Byers will support me teaching the truth as I know it in a public science class.

Up the Ladder, the next part, is posted.

Thanks RBH and thanks Mr. McGowan.

One question the author had was, when should he consider the issue succesfully resolved? Personally, even if you got assurances from the principle, I'd not consider it succesfully resolved until I had a copy of that class day's materials and (assuming there is some creationist bunk in it) had gotten explicit assurances from the school that material identified as creationist would be removed from future classes.

I like the way he went from mild to medium; that's the way to ramp it up.

I would only accept as a goal that the offending teacher needs to find a new career. I cannot imagine that a creationist could ever be trusted to teach sciecne, or that they were ever comptent to have taught science.

Maybe, with proper supervision, they could teach PE. Otherwise they belong in a church school.

I would only accept as a goal that the offending teacher needs to find a new career.

The Principal's reaction was good and swift but he might not necessarily be onside, he may just want to avoid a court case.

Michael J said: The Principal's reaction was good and swift but he might not necessarily be onside, he may just want to avoid a court case.

On the other hand, there’s also a moderately good chance that he’ll keep on using barely coded language, probably combined with bullying techniques to marginalize any kid that raises questions, with a certain amount of immunity, over the years.

— harold

Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

"to do," of course.

I cannot imagine why a science teacher, of all people, would argue that we can’t know what wasn’t witnessed by eye. That would be the death of history, and it is contrary to science.

— Ed Darrell

Frank J said:

I cannot imagine why a science teacher, of all people, would argue that we can’t know what wasn’t witnessed by eye. That would be the death of history, and it is contrary to science.

— Ed Darrell

Aside from a simple misunderstanding of the nature of science, which many science teachers apparently have, but nevertheless keep their jobs, I can imagine 2 reasons: 1. They are hopelessly compartmentalized. E.g. they understand and agree that we can determine what happened 100s of years ago (or even 6000) without being there, but their "Morton's Demon" draws a line "somewhere". 2. They know that they are telling a falsehood, but firmly believe that it's one that must be told in order to save the world.

Byers said: Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

high dungeon

My particular take also includes the fact that humans evolved to drink blood and dance around fires under a full moon. I will teach to state standards, but I will teach the controversy.

stevaroni said: What science teachers should teach is, unsurprisingly, just the damn science.

Checking in with the Mother Ship is now up at Dale's site.

Though I confess I've lost track of the posts. "Checking in..." says its part 5 but I only count four parts (1, 2, up the ladder, checking in), and the "part 3" link on Dale's page sends you to part 2.

Ah, confusion fixed. "Science, interrupted" came before part 1, making "part 2" the third post on the subject and Checking In the fifth.

Matt Young said:

high dungeon

I thought that dungeons were always below grade.

Michael J said: The Principal's reaction was good and swift but he might not necessarily be onside, he may just want to avoid a court case.

Ed Darrell said:

Its uncomfortable watching here attempts to attack a teacher who is just telling the truth as they see it.

That's exactly the opposite of what a teacher is supposed to to. Teachers, especially in the pre-tertiary levels, should teach how to discern the truth, how disputes about what the truth is can be resolved, and the history of such discernment disputes. Truth wins in a fair fight, Ben Franklin observed. I often note that is why we have evidence rules in federal courts, to make sure it's a fair fight. A teacher's duty is to teach how to keep that fight fair. I'm a Democrat, still, after long terms of employment in the Republican and conservative side of things. I don't expect my students (social studies, not science) to become Democrats. I expect them to become active citizens and push the levers of government and civic power for good causes they have determined on their own. We don't teach that Jefferson said the Bible detracts from education (though he did), we don't teach that Washington refused Christian communion his entire life (though he did), and we don't teach that Madison was a deist (he wasn't). We do let students read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, the Memorial and Remonstrance, and the more than 100 virtues George Washington copied down (from the Jesuits) and kept with him through his entire life. I cannot imagine why a science teacher, of all people, would argue that we can't know what wasn't witnessed by eye. That would be the death of history, and it is contrary to science.

"re the last paragraph - not only contrary to history and science- Doesn’t this (presumably Biblical literalist) know he is undercutting the Bible being “true”? Any statement in the Bible I could refute by saying “were you THERE?” - wasn’t there a story about Thomas and being able to believe things with out actually seeing them 1st hand?"

Right but we can take it on "Faith" which is a good thing if you have the "Right Faith" such as faith in Jesus. Obviously "Bad Faith" is if you have Thor.

If scientists have "Faith" it becomes a religion and can't be taught in schools. So :P

How could this not be obvious? /END CREOTARD

JASONMITCHELL said: re the last paragraph - not only contrary to history and science- Doesn't this (presumably Biblical literalist) know he is undercutting the Bible being "true"? Any statement in the Bible I could refute by saying "were you THERE?" - wasn't there a story about Thomas and being able to believe things with out actually seeing them 1st hand?

SWT said:

JASONMITCHELL said: re the last paragraph - not only contrary to history and science- Doesn't this (presumably Biblical literalist) know he is undercutting the Bible being "true"? Any statement in the Bible I could refute by saying "were you THERE?" - wasn't there a story about Thomas and being able to believe things with out actually seeing them 1st hand?

You're probably thinking about the part of the Easter narrative in which Thomas wants to have the same data the other remaining apostles had so that he could empirically validate their extraordinary claim.

Gary Hurd said: There are far-right Christian colleges giving degrees in "science education" and "school administration." They pass them out like candy if you are a good, hard right religious freak.

There is a real possibility if you have a creationist "science teacher," there is a creationist administrator protecting them. My wife and I had a recent chat with two high school science teachers from Laguna Beach Ca, who said that they were pressured by their department chairman, and their school principal, to minimize teaching evolution, and present creationist alternatives.

Go, Hyggie! You brighten up my day. Here am I trying to pound some basic cellular biology into my head, and you provide me with sure evidence that there are some people dumber than I am. Thanks!

Hygaboo Andersen said: Gee, why should Christians after enduring Darwinain mind rape for thirteen years (K-12) have to go through an additional 4-5 years of the same crud at a university in order to get that door-opening sheepskin? What's wrong with Christians establishing alternative institutions for the purpose of CV enhancement? So, it appears Christians occasionally speak truth to evolutionist power. The arrogant bigotry of the Darwiniacs and their assumptions of some natural right to absolute power over taxpayer dollars that have been taken from Christians is something breathtaking to behold. All citizens, not just evolutionists, have a right to have a say in how their tax dollars are spent!

Hygaboo Andersen said:

Gary Hurd said: There are far-right Christian colleges giving degrees in "science education" and "school administration." They pass them out like candy if you are a good, hard right religious freak.

Gee, why should Christians after enduring Darwinain mind rape for thirteen years (K-12) have to go through an additional 4-5 years of the same crud at a university in order to get that door-opening sheepskin? What's wrong with Christians establishing alternative institutions for the purpose of CV enhancement?

There is a real possibility if you have a creationist "science teacher," there is a creationist administrator protecting them. My wife and I had a recent chat with two high school science teachers from Laguna Beach Ca, who said that they were pressured by their department chairman, and their school principal, to minimize teaching evolution, and present creationist alternatives.

So, it appears Christians occasionally speak truth to evolutionist power. The arrogant bigotry of the Darwiniacs and their assumptions of some natural right to absolute power over taxpayer dollars that have been taken from Christians is something breathtaking to behold. All citizens, not just evolutionists, have a right to have a say in how their tax dollars are spent!

Numberplay: When Randomness Produces Certainty
By PRADEEP MUTALIK

Anyone for manually doing a three letter weasel program?

Ravilyn Sanders said: Numberplay: When Randomness Produces Certainty By PRADEEP MUTALIK Anyone for manually doing a three letter weasel program?

Anyone for manually doing a three letter weasel program?

Hygaboo Andersen said: All citizens, not just evolutionists, have a right to have a say in how their tax dollars are spent!

I'm sympathetic to the blogger's efforts, but his statement in e-mail to the Creationist that in deciding a person's identity he would believe a DNA test over many-times-repeated positive ID with his own eyes is a brain-fart. Fact is, if you're a sighted person of sound mind, looking somebody you know straight in the face (under ordinary, reasonable conditions) is a much more reliable way of identifying them than getting their DNA sent to a lab. If one is going to bring in the remote chance of unexplained hallucinations, which one would pretty much have to do to make the "eyewitness" mistaken in such a case, one would have to reckon with the same possibility when it came to reading the lab results: how do you know you're seeing THEM straight, if you can't trust yourself to see Mary and Susan straight?

You can't bypass the senses, in the end. And you can't substitute science entirely for the senses which we use to perceive science itself.

It's unwise to mangle one's own reality-sense in an attempt to head off Creationist nonsense at the pass. The blogger thinks he scored, but it was an own goal.

Greetings to all.

I am a creationist, and I am a conservative Christian. I am not a YEC Per Se. If YEC be true, then the universe is merely a stage set up by God for His temporary purpose. Just as in a Broadway production of 'South Pacific, the investors do not plant Palm Tree seeds waiting for the Palm Tree to grow before the Play may begin.

Then again, maybe the universe is like the movie 'The Matrix' or as the Hindu's have long believed, that the universe and all we see is an illusion, but we think it is fact because we know no better than the illusion before us. Then, if so, maybe we just can walk through a locked door or feed 5,000 people with just a few fish and loaves of bread.

I believe in the existence of God, our Creator, thus I am a Creationist. My love of science has lead me to reject natural cause as the mechanism of the existence of life on Earth. The fact that Abiogenesis has been scientifically demonstrated to be impossible, and similarly, natural cause can not rearrange amino acids to build all the proteins required for the great variation life as we know it, I reject outright Evolution by natural causes over time outright. Only intelligence is capable of arranging molecules in the arrangements we observe in life today, for it takes intelligence to impose boundary conditions on the laws of Physics and Chance to provide life as we do observe it on our planet.

Evolution was never based upon clear concise scientific fact, The only reason that Evolution is taught as fact in our school systems today is that ever since Lyell and Darwin, materialists have taken control of public education, hiring only the like minded, and have conspired to impose their materialistic belief system on all others, by taking over the school systems and mass media and teaching their philosophy as fact in schools and to the public at large, and suppressing and removing all opposition via censorship and other Orwellian methods.

In other news, Arthur the Creationist is lying through his teeth when he claims he "loves science"

My love of bagels has lead me to reject bread of all kinds.

The fact that Abiogenesis has been scientifically demonstrated to be possible, and similarly, natural cause can rearrange amino acids to build all the proteins required for the great variation life as we know it, I accept outright Evolution by natural causes over time outright. Not only intelligence is capable of arranging molecules in the arrangements we observe in life today, for it does not take intelligence to impose boundary conditions on the laws of Physics and Chance to provide life as we do observe it on our planet.

Evolution was always based upon clear concise scientific fact, The only reason that Evolution is taught as theory in our school systems today is that ever since Lyell and Darwin, scientists have taken control of public science education, hiring only the able minded, and have not conspired to impose their personal belief systems on any others, by taking over the school systems and mass media and teaching their philosophy as fact in schools and to the public at large, and suppressing and removing all opposition via censorship and other Orwellian methods, since that is what creationists do.

There, all fixed.

A) Believing in the existence of God does not automatically make one a "Creationist." Believe that God magically poofed the world and universe into existence as according to a literal interpretation of one's preferred holybook makes on a "Creationist."

B) If a person had a genuine "love of science," then that person would be able to tell the difference between science, religious philosophy, and navel-contemplation.

C) If a person had a genuine "love of science," then that person would not mindlessly repeat lies made by Young Earth Creationists, all of whom hate science.

Plus, if a person has to whine about imaginary conspiracies by evil materialists to explain why Evolution is taught as a science in schools, not only are they lying about "loving science," but they're also idiots to boot.

DS said: My love of bagels has lead me to reject bread of all kinds.

Arthur, if you have evidence for your assertion, "Abiogenesis has been scientifically demonstrated to be impossible", then produce it, please, or cite the reference.

Arthur said: The fact that Abiogenesis has been scientifically demonstrated to be impossible, and similarly, natural cause can not rearrange amino acids to build all the proteins required for the great variation life as we know it, I reject outright Evolution by natural causes over time outright.

Stanton said:

DS said: My love of bagels has lead me to reject bread of all kinds.

You should be loxed up for that.

mrg said:

Stanton said:

DS said: My love of bagels has lead me to reject bread of all kinds.

You should be loxed up for that.

For that, Stanton, you either deserve a reward, or should be fined.

mrg said:

Stanton said:

DS said: My love of bagels has lead me to reject bread of all kinds.

You should be loxed up for that.

For that, Stanton, you either deserve a reward, or should be fined.

Stanton said: In Japan, they deify people who make especially gruesome puns.