Comer Update - Suit Published

Speaking of what one wishes for from the lawyers, I am concerned whether there will be anyone representing the students of Texas.

stevaroni said:

keith sez... Greetings to the Neo-Nazi cult members...

Um, so do I put down 12:24 PM as the point where, in yet another post, you're officially out of any points whatsoever around which to build arguments and have to resort to ad-hominems because that all you've got left?

JJ said: From the stories, one might think the e-mail was sent to all 24 million people in Texas. Chris only sent the e-mail to about 8 of us. TEA superiors confronted her within an hour after sending the e-mail. Amazing they have resources of time and money to monitor all the e-mails coming in and going out of the state education agency. Seems like there are more than enough education issues in Texas to deal with, but e-mail monitoring has high priority.

JJ, how many messages did you receive on the TEA email system exhorting you to forward the message to 10 people if you love Jesus? Just curious …

Speaking of what one hopes for from the lawyers, I mostly hope that someone is going to speak for the students of the state of Texas.

I eagerly await the filing from the State Attorney General’s Office in due course.

Question: Surely a state whose primary income is derived from the business of extracting the subtarranean liquid remains of millions y.o. biomatter would not flinch at the teaching of evolution and the age of the Earth?

I mean for God's sake it's like the only state where a geologist can earn a decent living.

wikipedia: In 2000, The religious demographics of Texas were:[70] Evangelical Protestant – 24.4% Mainline Protestant – 8.1% Orthodox – 0.1% Roman Catholic – 21.0% Hindu,Sikhs,Buddhists,Muslim,others; 2.0% Unclaimed – 44.5% The largest single denominations by number of adherents in 2000 were the Roman Catholic Church 4,368,969, the Southern Baptist Convention 3,519,459 and the United Methodist Church 1,022,342.[70] Also, there are approximately 400,000 Muslims in Texas.[71]

PvM said:

keith said: Greetings to the Neo-Nazi cult members,

Our foolish Christian friend is still going through his 'anger' stage.

Before you conquer the universe in behalf of Beelzebub you might hold off until the response is filed.

Now who is using ad hominems, name calling and other foolishness to undermine Christianity? Think about it my dear confused Christian friend.

keith said: Greetings to the Neo-Nazi cult members,

Federal courts have to deal with certain elements of states rights and they are quite reticent to overturn employment law and practice of long establishment.

The burden in a narrow application such as neutrality is quite high and unlikely to be friendly to this suit.

Since the State has not published it's response to the suit and it is known that multiple issues were involved in the decision to move from suspension to dismissal it will be quite certain Comer's entire record will be on display...we'll see.

I suspect that the State will be able to afford a more than adequate legal team to defend their position.

It is a testimony to the Yoko Ono lawyers herein that they have a dead certain case before they have even read the defendant's filing.

If you think state case law and precedent have no bearing in federal suits you are even dumber than your frozen walnut IQ's previously demonstrated.

Before you conquer the universe in behalf of Beelzebub you might hold off until the response is filed.

Question: Surely a state whose primary income is derived from the business of extracting the subtarranean liquid remains of millions y.o. biomatter would not flinch at the teaching of evolution and the age of the Earth?

keith said: I think the opening up of the host group and the NCSE will be most illuminating to the public.

I eagerly await the filing from the State Attorney General's Office in due course.

keith said: I suspect that the State will be able to afford a more than adequate legal team to defend their position.

Well huh. All this talk about Comer’s chances of winning, and nobody asks about her attorneys. Remember Robert Frost’s dictum that “A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyer."

Patton, Boggs, LLP hangs out in Washington DC. They are a large, nationally known, multi-location, multi-practice firm that deals extensively in government relations and in employment law. Judith Bagley is a partner at the Dallas office; she is the required locally-admitted attorney, and might not have a major role in this suit. The big guns are listed on the right-hand side of the complaint; they have been admitted pro hac vice—that is, for purposes of this case. They all live at the head office in DC..

Douglas Mishkin co-chairs the firm’s employment-law practice area. He has 28 years experience, regularly appearing in Federal EEOC proceedings, and before state and local human-rights agencies. (He had headed President Clinton’s transition team for the EEOC.) He’s represented parties on both sides of the fence in employment disputes. This is valuable, because it gives experience in an opponent’s tactics.

John Oberstar has chaired the firm’s litigation department. His 30 years’ experience focuses on Federal and Constitutional law. He is an the firm’s Executive Committee.

Pamela Richardson is an associate with 5 years’ experience. She specializes in employment law and counseling, and acquired substantial litigation background while representing New York City in employment discrimination and EEO matters. Here again, experience representing employers can redound to the benefit of Ms. Comer in dealing with a large and sophisticated opponent.

I’d expect that at least part of Patton Boggs work will be pro bono, since the plaintiff is not seeking a large monetary award. (WIBNI the TEA does get socked with huge damages, though!) The answer has apparently not yet been filed, so we don’t know who their attorneys are; I’d expect a large Texas firm, rather than a national one. (Certainly less inept than the Thomas More Law Center in the Kitzmiller case, however.)

This case could be very important in influencing the TEA’s selection of textbooks. And thereby the national quality of books, since Texas is the largest single buyer of school texts. It is not a slam dunk, however, that a favorable ruling would decide the issue of whether creationism is “science”. The TEA will certainly seek to duck this issue if they can—possibly even if it means losing the case on other grounds. Also, the plaintiff can’t count on being able to call in the scientists to defend evolution. The decision in Aguillard actually did not include any scientists’ testimony; the Supreme Court sort of assumed on their own hook that creationism is not science; their decision was based upon other prongs of the Lemon test. This case might be tougher to fight, but ultimately more influential, than a suit in Louisiana against Bobby’s Folly.

So it will be interesting from several perspectives to see how this case unfolds.

That'll be just about enough out of you, Robin!

The so-called Nazis (actually, the NSDAP) were very much pro-science. They simply insisted on sound science, not the junk science and hand-holding pandering of liberal degenerates.

It was NSDAP Germany that established the boundaries of human subtypes.

It was Reich science that established that, far from being on the surface of a hollow Earth, we were in fact inside one!

It was Germany's cosmologists and astrophysicists that determined the nonexistence of so-called "space" and replaced it decisively with an unending block of ice.

NSDAP discoveries included recovering the lost technology of Thule and the Vrill, leading to a general science Renaissance that we have depended on up to the present time. It took Reich astronomers to sort the dross from the grain of so-called astrology.

Undoubtedly, your coven of anti-true-science witches welcomed the Expelling of sound science after the Communist-Roosevelt axis "won" the "war." Maybe a few of us WANT cars that run on vitamin pills and water. Ever consider that?

sounds like a 'cracker jack' team for Comer

Marion Delgado hallucinated: It took Reich astronomers to sort the dross from the grain of so-called astrology.

Metal has 'swarf' LOL!
Quick Robin, to the bat belfry!!

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that Texas settles*, and she gets her job back.

* If she'll let them ;)

Remember that this is not as much a request for trial as it is for declaratory judgment and an injunction.

chuck said: I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that Texas settles*, and she gets her job back. * If she'll let them ;)

And you think ‘Expelled’ is all true all the time, don’t you?

It may be early days to look at this, since there could be either a settlement or a very decisive ruling one way or another, but as far as I know, the Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit handles Texas, and here is the US Govt. site that has judge biographies for the 5th C.:

http://www.lb5.uscourts.gov/judgebio/FifthCircuit/

And here is news and opinions of the 5th circuit:

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/

keith said: It will be a lot of fun to parade the views of the NCSE and their host organization in Austin before the emtire American public and then claim her job was to publically promote those views as responsible under published neutrality policies. I think the opening up of the host group and the NCSE will be most illuminating to the public.

I see PvM, Pee Wee Myers Christian Bulldog, is still leveling his apostolic criticism...no confusion over where he stands.

Employment at will means "absolutely no reason has to be given for dismissing someone" and I suspect no one here knows what the terms of her resignation were, what severance was involved, what she agree to in receiving it, etc.

No firm is required to or does list in any correspondence all its reasons for a dismissal prior to litigation.

A dismissal hardly limits what a defense can include in its filing...it's the original filing that matters and all the deliberations and actions leading up to the decision.

Do you suppose that the entire process might have been reviewed by counsel, outside counsel, consulting opinion counsels before any action was taken on the dismissal of a senior official?

Do you suppose their policy of neutrality was also reviewed before implementation, as above?

What do you think people were doing during the 30-40 days between her probation and dismissal?

What's really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.

As I recall Texaco had a big time eastern team also until Jamial and Pennzoil kicked their butt for 3 bbl.

The law singles out creationism as something that may not be taught.

FL said: [Chris Comer got] her biased no-count fanny fired for mis-using a STATE email account

keith said: What's really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.

But at least Comer WILL have to do some good hard splainin’ to do on the witness box; she ain’t getting outta that obligation!!

fired for mis-using a STATE email account to satisfy her little private shill fetish

Gee when you look at the letter of resignation that Chris wrote and signed and was posted, countersigned as accepted , etc. one wonders where the word fired comes in.

Do you think this letter might be introduced to illustrate her decision to resign. She could have waited to be fired but she didn't.

Why do you suppose she did that...maybe severance, maybe retirement vesting, extended leave, etc.

She even thanked the agency for permitting her to have the job in the first place.

She wasn't forced to resign she chose to resign in order to receive certain benefits so far undisclosed.

In the court system the game of...can I take that back..doesn't play out very well.

PvM said: Remember that this is not as much a request for trial as it is for declaratory judgment and an injunction.

There are many excellent academies, colleges, and universities in the United States where one can enjoy the freedom to teach and explore all ideas and concepts. In these halls all conclusions drawn from scientific discoveries may be explored.

More and more parents and students are taking advantage of these institutions.

Sorry, the education self-edited. That was supposed to read:

"The hayseeds who think KETCHUP is a vegetable"

blame Roy Zimmerman. Thanks, I'll be here all week.

I can't help but wonder (hope) if the timing of this lawsuit has an effect on the upcoming review of the state science standards for biology. By keeping this issue in the spotlight, it makes it much harder for McElroy and his ilk to try to slip changes into the standards under the radar that would weaken evolution education and/or open up back doors for pseudoscience.

Keith asserts his lawyerly opinion that “employment at will means ‘absolutely no reason has to be given for dismissing someone’.” That may be true for employment at will, but Chris Comers had a civil-service job that has more rights. But, even in industry, there are reasons that defeat “at will,” Such as harassment or discrimination,

Note that TEA tried a CYA, by mentioning other reasons for the termination. This is a tactic that every manager knows by heart, so we can’t tell whether or not anyone else in HR or legal reviewed the decision. I’m doubtful that outside counsel was involved. I don’t think TEA considered it all that seriously at the time. She’s really not a “senior official,” Keith.

“Do you suppose their policy of neutrality was also reviewed before implementation, as above?” Doubtful. TEA has always been a political animal, and legal considerations are not prominent. Cf. the Kansas State Board standards donnybrook in 2005.

“What’s really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.” And it wins every time. Do you have any idea why? Court is the one place where ID creationists are forced to tell the truth and to answer questions directly. Although Lord knows they tried not to at Dover. The testimony of every one of the defenses’ witnesses in Kitzmiller was dishonest—evasions, distortions, misleading, outright lies. That trial took “lying for Jesus” to a new high. As to the merits: “Moreover, ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard.”

Observer said:

The law singles out creationism as something that may not be taught.

This statement is only true when applied to GOVERNMENT schools. There are many excellent academies, colleges, and universities in the United States where one can enjoy the freedom to teach and explore all ideas and concepts. In these halls all conclusions drawn from scientific discoveries may be explored. More and more parents and students are taking advantage of these institutions.

Peter Henderson said: What is fair employment law like in Texas ?

“The hayseeds who think KETCHUP/tomato is a vegetable”

The law singles out creationism as something that may not be taught.

There are many excellent academies, colleges, and universities in the United States where one can enjoy the freedom to teach and explore all ideas and concepts. In these halls all conclusions drawn from scientific discoveries may be explored.

"Observer" said: More and more parents and students are taking advantage of these institutions (private "schools" that teach creationism).

I was under the impression that there was no perfect escape from the Official State Curriculum. I know that home-schooled kids must still show that they have covered the mandated materials, and must pass standardized tests covering them. I think the same is true of private schools and parochial schools.

In other words, they can (and do) preach at you all day long and preface their textbooks with disclaimers that where scripture and reality conflict, reality is wrong. BUT, you are not granted an approved diploma without having satisfied the State that you are competent in State-selected and approved materials.

Does anyone have firsthand experience that this isn't the case in Texas?

Flint said: I was under the impression that there was no perfect escape from the Official State Curriculum. I know that home-schooled kids must still show that they have covered the mandated materials, and must pass standardized tests covering them. I think the same is true of private schools and parochial schools. In other words, they can (and do) preach at you all day long and preface their textbooks with disclaimers that where scripture and reality conflict, reality is wrong. BUT, you are not granted an approved diploma without having satisfied the State that you are competent in State-selected and approved materials. Does anyone have firsthand experience that this isn't the case in Texas?

FL said: (after first doing her dirt as a two-bit shill for the materialist-religion "Austin Center for Inquiry" and getting her biased no-count fanny fired for mis-using a STATE email account to satisfy her little private shill fetish)

Keith said: Employment at will means “absolutely no reason has to be given for dismissing someone”

"Observer" ovserves... This statement is only true when applied to GOVERNMENT schools. ... some stuff ... In these (other) halls all conclusions drawn from scientific discoveries may be explored.

raven said:

JJ, how many messages did you receive on the TEA email system exhorting you to forward the message to 10 people if you love Jesus? Just curious …

It is called godspam. Want some? Just click on creationist websites and you will get it forever. I don't even visit them anymore.

Paul B writes... The answer has apparently not yet been filed, so we don’t know who their (TEA's) attorneys are; I’d expect a large Texas firm, rather than a national one.

Isn't it interesting that the suit does not demand a jury trial by her peers on the matter, but rather a declaratory judgement under the claim that is no need for a tryer of fact, no dispute over the facts concerning her several violations of policy and conditions of employment as listed in the attachments.

The claim is that it is a matter of black letter law and has no facts to be argued before a jury.

Fat Chance!!

The State can easily respond and file its own request for summary judgement.

But if it should be litigated it will be a jury trial I'm betting as there are plenty of facts in question.

It doesn’t help that TEA was just plain pig stupid in the way they went about the whole deal.

But if it should be litigated it will be a jury trial I’m betting as there are plenty of facts in question.

keith said: The State can easily respond and file its own request for summary judgement. But if it should be litigated it will be a jury trial I'm betting as there are plenty of facts in question.

keith said: Isn't it interesting that the suit does not demand a jury trial by her peers on the matter, but rather a declaratory judgement under the claim that is no need for a tryer of fact, no dispute over the facts concerning her several violations of policy and conditions of employment as listed in the attachments.

PvM said: Seems that Keith had not even noticed these details until I pointed them out to him. Probably he was too busy namecalling....?

keith said: She wasn't forced to resign she chose to resign in order to receive certain benefits so far undisclosed.

Science Avenger said:

PvM said: Seems that Keith had not even noticed these details until I pointed them out to him. Probably he was too busy namecalling....?

Denialists never get the facts themselves. That's the job of the scientists. It's the denialists' jobs to tell us what the facts mean.

FL said:

If you are waiting for the court decision to discuss what can happen in court, it is even more curious why you comment.

All I said was that Chris Comer has got some good big splainin' to do under oath. THAT little confession session is guaranteed to take place on the witness stand, regardless of whether the court ultimately decides in her favor or not. (Hence my previous comment was entirely appropriate, and btw, you were & are false to claim any lying on my part, since what I've said is necessarily true.) FL

Eric said: Though I do disagree with your point that it's more political than religous.

stevaroni said: Welcome to Planet Texas. Actually, in all seriousness, most Texans are pretty rational people with a reasonably well tuned bullshit detector.

D P Robin said: I based my comment on #3 of the Introduction to Comer's complaint, as found in the link Dave Thomas gave us:

3. On November 8, 2007, the Agency fired Director Comer for contravening the Agency's "neutrality" policy by forwarding an email to other science educators annoncing an wpcoming lecture about evolution and creationism. According to the Agency's memorandum recommending that director Comer be fired:

On October 26, 2007, Ms Comer forwarded an email from her TEA email account to a grouop of people, including two external email groups, that annouced a presentation on creationism and intelligent design entitled "Inside Creation's Trojan Horse." The email states that the specker [Barbara Forrest] is a board member of a science education organization, and the email clearly indicates that the group opposes teaching creationism in public education. ... When Dr. Jackson asked Ms Comer about this situation, she replied that she was only forwarding information. However, the forwarding of this event announcment by Ms Comer, as Director of Science, from her TEA email account constitutes much more than just sharing information. Ms Comer's email implies endorsement of the speaker and implies that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a subject on which the agency must remain neutral. Thus, sending this email compromises the agency's role in the TEKS revision process by crerating the perception that TEA has a biased position on a subject directly related to the science education TEKS.

(Ex. B) (emphasis added)

This is repeated later in the complaint, and in the exhibits. It is well worth reading. Although I still have some questions, I think it is a very strong case. I should note that I had to type out the above, as I could not cut and paste from a pdf doc on this computer. Any types, therefore can be assumed mine. dpr

Larry Boy said:

Ron Okimoto said: If all the board lie about it, Comer's case would be much weaker. The fact that creationism was brought up and it has repeatedly been found to be not an appropriate science topic, would put a big dent in their neutrality argument. Any minutes or recording of the meeting?

True, which is why perjury is a criminal offense. Lie about you go to jail for five years. That should hopefully help keep the people somewhat honest. -Topic Change- I think Comer has a case and wish her well in the good fight (Of course, I have very few facts on which to base that opinion) but I wonder if the lawsuit might be more broadly worded than necessary. The enforcement of the 'neutrality' policy is possibly a violation of the establishment clause, (though I hope there are other laws which are more relevant), but the argument outlined very early in the brief that the neutrality policy itself violates the establishment clause, regardless of the way in which it is implemented, seems much more tenuous. Certainly teaching religion in the science class room is unconstitutional, but is it unconstitutional for a government agency to have a policy stating that they take no stance on the constitutionality of teaching religion in the science class room? Again, take note that this is a separate issue from firring Dr. Comer over her entirely reasonable e-mail, and I am not asking if the actions of the board were appropriate, but whether the first claim made in the suit: "By professing 'neutrality,' the Agency credits creationism as a valid scientific theory" and "The Agency's policy is not neutral at all, because it has the purpose or effect of inviting dispute about an issue ... that is forbidden by the Establishment Clause." is really a reasonable interpretation of the law. Is it really within the courts power to assert that government agencies are legally obligated to take specific positions on certain public policy issues? This seems to be a part of the plaintiff's argument. Discuss.

PvM (imposter)

When I'm dealing with totally untruthful people, abysmally ignorant outside their narrow sub-subject of science, malicious, mentally deranged true believers it is best to check out the facts independent of anything they have posted.

This is particularly true of people who compartmentalize their world view and their faith, and their vocation in to little logic tight boxes for gain, prestigue, career, lucre and approval.

Lets see multiple documented cases of policy violations, counseling sessions, and documentation on file for a one year period at least, continuing violations, ignoring policies in general.hmmmmmmm!

All of which are included in the letter.

I don’t understand how the perjury deal works. A lot of criminals lie under oath. They get convicted anyway, but they don’t have to spend an extra 5 years in jail because of it. Do civil cases work the same way? If they lose does it matter if they lied? It shouldn’t matter if they lose or not, but court costs for another trial etc. probably let those things slide.

FL rants... some of you thought that Yoko Ono’s lawsuit against “Expelled” was gonna be a lock.

Marion Delgado said: That'll be just about enough out of you, Robin! The so-called Nazis (actually, the NSDAP) were very much pro-science. They simply insisted on sound science, not the junk science and hand-holding pandering of liberal degenerates It was NSDAP Germany that established the boundaries of human subtypes. It was Reich science that established that, far from being on the surface of a hollow Earth, we were in fact inside one! It was Germany's cosmologists and astrophysicists that determined the nonexistence of so-called "space" and replaced it decisively with an unending block of ice. NSDAP discoveries included recovering the lost technology of Thule and the Vrill, leading to a general science Renaissance that we have depended on up to the present time. It took Reich astronomers to sort the dross from the grain of so-called astrology. Undoubtedly, your coven of anti-true-science witches welcomed the Expelling of sound science after the Communist-Roosevelt axis "won" the "war." Maybe a few of us WANT cars that run on vitamin pills and water. Ever consider that?

Ron Okimoto said: I don't understand how the perjury deal works. A lot of criminals lie under oath. They get convicted anyway, but they don't have to spend an extra 5 years in jail because of it. Do civil cases work the same way? If they lose does it matter if they lied? It shouldn't matter if they lose or not, but court costs for another trial etc. probably let those things slide.

Robin said: ...So "Ms." Delgado can embrace whatever strawmen she desires, but the reality is that Keith's label for the scientifically-minded here was completely inaccurate.

that they’ve reportedly removed “Imagine” from all current film & DVD releases.

keith said: I see PvM, Pee Wee Myers Christian Bulldog, is still leveling his apostolic criticism...no confusion over where he stands. Employment at will means "absolutely no reason has to be given for dismissing someone" and I suspect no one here knows what the terms of her resignation were, what severance was involved, what she agree to in receiving it, etc.

No firm is required to or does list in any correspondence all its reasons for a dismissal prior to litigation.

A dismissal hardly limits what a defense can include in its filing...it's the original filing that matters and all the deliberations and actions leading up to the decision.

Do you suppose that the entire process might have been reviewed by counsel, outside counsel, consulting opinion counsels before any action was taken on the dismissal of a senior official?

Do you suppose their policy of neutrality was also reviewed before implementation, as above?

What do you think people were doing during the 30-40 days between her probation and dismissal?

What's really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.

As I recall Texaco had a big time eastern team also until Jamial and Pennzoil kicked their butt for 3 bbl.

The constitutionality of requiring someone to be "neutral" on whether mythology or science is science is dubious.

The neutrality policy sounds vague. Was it written down? Did every one have a copy? Were there training sessions on how to be neutral? That is, don't laugh when someone says the earth is 6,000 years old while driving a car fueled by 200 million year old fossil fuels? Or instructions on giving yourself a lobotomy to help the neutrality principle along.

And how is forwarding an email about a relevant talk by a well known scholar a violation of neutrality? Does neutrality mean one must put their brain in neutral and sit in a near comatose state?

Bureaucracies are all the same as are fascists. They were out to get Comer as a known science supporter and any pretext would have done. Crossing the street, having tea with demons in her office, being able to read and write, it didn't matter. Those Texas theocrats are going to be entertaining to examine under oath.

Eric said: Um, I took Marion's post as satire. Claiming we live inside a hollow earth, itself within an unending block of ice...well, even if she was serious, it's funny :)

Eric,

Defendants usually have twenty days after a complaint is served on them to file an answer, though there are exceptions.

tomh said:

chuck said: I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that Texas settles*, and she gets her job back. * If she'll let them ;)

Why would they?

Creationism is about as far from science as you can get. Literally farther out than Behe’s astrology.

— Ron Okimoto

Ron Okimoto said: ...the policy was unclear, underhanded, and purposely misworded to mislead about the policies intent to protect religiously motivated policy decisions.

Chuck,

Interesting point about the possibility of Texas settling. AIUI, "settling" usually means that both sides give up something. All Texas would "give up" is a bruised ego, and would get back someone that they know did her job, and did it well. But if the settlement includes any concession to "academic freedom" (aka "academic anarchy") or the definition of "neutrality," it could conceivably be worse for Texas students than if Comer loses the case.

As I said before, Comer will likely land on her feet no matter what the outcome. What really needs to happen is that the anti-science activists be removed from their positions. I'm not sure if they are elected or appointed, but the elected Dover school board were booted out even before the trial.

Ron Okimoto said: There was a thread a while back where someone recorded McLeroy's switch scam boot camp where he told the congregation what the score was and what they had to do.

Marion Delgado is kidding, right? Or does he/she represent the radical right wing of the Timecube crowd?

As for keith and FL, we know they're not joking -- they're the joke.

Raging Bee said: Marion Delgado is kidding, right? Or does he/she represent the radical right wing of the Timecube crowd? As for keith and FL, we know they're not joking -- they're the joke.

keith said: What's really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.

raven said: The neutrality policy sounds vague. Was it written down? Did every one have a copy? Were there training sessions on how to be neutral?

Steven Laskoske said:

raven said: The neutrality policy sounds vague. Was it written down? Did every one have a copy? Were there training sessions on how to be neutral?

As I understand it, this was an unwritten policy.

It’s in writing now.

It bears repeating; if there actually was any evidentiary basis behind creation - any basis at all - it would be perfectly legal to teach it in public schools right now, whether it had a religious implication or not.

— stevaroni

PvM (imposter)

When I'm dealing with totally untruthful people, abysmally ignorant outside their narrow sub-subject of science, malicious, mentally deranged true believers it is best to check out the facts independent of anything they have posted.

This is particularly true of people who compartmentalize their world view and their faith, and their vocation in to little logic tight boxes for gain, prestigue, career, lucre and approval.

Lets see multiple documented cases of policy violations, counseling sessions, and documentation on file for a one year period at least, continuing violations, ignoring policies in general.hmmmmmmm!

All of which are included in the letter.

midwifetoad said:

Steven Laskoske said:

raven said: The neutrality policy sounds vague. Was it written down? Did every one have a copy? Were there training sessions on how to be neutral?

As I understand it, this was an unwritten policy.

It's in writing now.

I surmise the average reading comprehension score by this team of true believers is somewhat below the state average for West Virgina.

Can't you read the actual letter listing a year of disciplinary actions resulting from clear policy violations, several counseling sessions, repeated instructions as to several policies other than neutrality and her ignoring all of these actions?

Can't you read her resignation letter, thanking her employer for PERMITTING her to serve?

Can you see its official nature, acceptance signature, date stamp, etc?

There is not one wiff of the word creation or protecting or favoring creation in any policy. She and other employees were to remain neutral regarding their position and avoid publically endorsing any stance on issues related to science standards that would indicate personal bias.

Was she singled out as the only employee subject to any of the policies violated...absolutely not.

Any moron who thinks the TEA did not have complete legal review of the decision, the record of policy violations by Comer on several policies, the several disciplinary reviews with her management over a one year prior period and carefully documented has apparently zero corporate HR experience, corporate legal schooling, and has never administered a layoff, downsizing, or dismissal.

I told you the Yoko Ono suit would be shoved up your butts and you failed to comprehend superior intellect then and apparently haven't caught on yet.

Don't be so hard on the Texans, they contribute a tremendous amount of the taxes that fund your welfare checks.

Lets see multiple documented cases of policy violations, counseling sessions, and documentation on file for a one year period at least, continuing violations, ignoring policies in general.hmmmmmmm!

On October 16th, 2007, Ms Comer forwarded an e-mail... The e-mail states that the speaker (Barbera Forest) is a board member of a science education organization, and the e-mail clearly indicates that the group opposes teaching creationism in public education

Somehow Keith's ability to read is foolishly blinded by his anger and denial.

keith said: PvM (imposter) When I'm dealing with totally untruthful people, abysmally ignorant outside their narrow sub-subject of science, malicious, mentally deranged true believers it is best to check out the facts independent of anything they have posted.

Paul - McElroy's talk is stored in several different places.

I don't think the "neutrality" policy was ever in writing. It was announced at a staff meeting, so I guess it depends on how many former employees come back and testify. There are quite a few former employees.

so I guess it depends on how many former employees come back and testify. There are quite a few former employees.

Since its apparent that the luddites here can't read the entire record, including the exhibits with the specific recommendation for termination including the long list of offences, the detailed disciplinary sessions, the continued and long record of insubordination documented leading up to the resignation vs dismissal decision, the resignation letter, the email admitting "error" on her part ...well I'll just wait on the court.

Your legal expertise was perfectly displayed on the Yoko Ono suit and its still stuck in your rhetorical butts where I shoved it with great delight.

.. as any true follower of the Prince of Peace would, Keith, I'm sure.

keith said: Since its apparent that the luddites here can't read the entire record, including the exhibits with the specific recommendation for termination including the long list of offences, the detailed disciplinary sessions, the continued and long record of insubordination documented leading up to the resignation vs dismissal decision, the resignation letter, the email admitting "error" on her part ...well I'll just wait on the court. Your legal expertise was perfectly displayed on the Yoko Ono suit and its still stuck in your rhetorical butts where I shoved it with great delight.

I don’t think the “neutrality” policy was ever in writing. It was announced at a staff meeting, so I guess it depends on how many former employees come back and testify. There are quite a few former employees.

PvM,

After you read and watch A. E. Wildersmith as I recommended get back to me and explain your disagreements ..that is if a world class scientist's writings have any impact on your clouded mind...you can skip the parts about Christianity if you find those distasteful as he was a powerful witness as well as scientist.

But I'm sure your committment to Myers, Dawkins, Harris, and the other Christ haters has pretty well blocked your mind at this point.

Be thankful for Grace,

Keith

Keith: What’s REALLY pitiable is that your idiotic religion cannot stand on its on merits, but must be disguised as science (and THEN lawyered) to gain acceptance.

Your legal expertise was perfectly displayed on the Yoko Ono suit and its still stuck in your rhetorical butts where I shoved it with great delight.

Keith,

What, in your understanding, is the definition of "Luddite" and how is it applicable in the current context?

keith yammers... Since its apparent that the luddites here can’t read the entire record, including the exhibits with the specific recommendation for termination including the long list...

...forward[ing] an e-mail… The e-mail states that the speaker (Barbera Forest) is a board member of a science education organization, and the e-mail clearly indicates that the group opposes teaching creationism in public education

What's really pitiable is that your pseudoscience cannot stand on its on merits, but must be lawyered to gain acceptance.

keith said: PvM, After you read and watch A. E. Wildersmith as I recommended get back to me and explain your disagreements ..that is if a world class scientist's writings have any impact on your clouded mind...you can skip the parts about Christianity if you find those distasteful as he was a powerful witness as well as scientist. But I'm sure your committment to Myers, Dawkins, Harris, and the other Christ haters has pretty well blocked your mind at this point. Be thankful for Grace, Keith

Larry Boy said: This is OT....

PvM is afraid to read and understand the material by Wildersmith. The age of a position may or may not be important and such arguments are sophomoric logical fallacies as any text on critical thinking, Socratic methods, debate, etc. will reveal in a NYM.

Every argument advanced in the material suggested here and which I did read ( I have no fear of such pseudo-scientific flotsum) has been addressed in particulars by Wildersmith since all such silliness is simply recycled protenoids, coacervates, protocells, etc. first proposed by Fox and Oparin, Miller, et al and nothing new or startling has been added of consequence in cluding clay,silicon, meterorite or other supposed templates.

ON the subject at hand:

If you wish to believe that pulling out one of several well supported evidences of insubordination by Comer over a 12 month period from the letter of recommendation for dismissal and highlighting it and only it in their filing will work you are childishly naive. Too bad the actual letter, exhibit B, begins with a paragraph stating the employment policy number covering the subject action and further directly states the recommendation is for a SERIES ,got that, a SERIES
of cases of insubordination and policy violations, only one of which, the last, relates to the neutrality doctrine.

Each of these acts of insubordination (properly defined by policy referenced and stated in part) is then listed and dated and detailed step by step in the recommending letter.

Two letters documenting in detail multiple conferences on these serial violations were held with Comer to repeatedly explain policy, administer discipline, and give direction are referenced and therefore admissible. They were held between these repeated offences with Comer demonstrating that she continued to ignore policy and supervisory direction. These were not trumped-up afterthefact reasons by definition because the letter and counseling conferences are a matter of record and preceded the last offence involving neutrality by months.

Anyone reading the care and attention given to this process over a year and the structure and completeness of the letter of recommendation in detailing authorizing policies, language, definitions of terms by policy, and including by reference the letters of discipline and concludes that this action was not taken with extreme precision and care under guidance of legal counsel is an ignoramus or simply intellectually dishonest and in this case probably both.

keith said: ...well I'll just wait on the court.

keith said: [long winded blah blah about the evidence redacted]

NOTE TO COMMENTERS: The topic of this thread is Chris Comer’s lawsuit against the Texas Education Agency. Do not clutter this thread with unrelated topics like evidence of Christ’s resurrection, evidence for the Origin Of Life (OOL), A.E. Wlider-Smith etc. I won’t be as lenient as I was in the last thread on this topic. - Dave

If you wish to believe that pulling out one of several well supported evidences of insubordination by Comer...

Eric said: Um, I took Marion's post as satire. Claiming we live inside a hollow earth, itself within an unending block of ice...well, even if she was serious, it's funny :)

Frank J said: Actually classic creationism is sort of like astrology in that it makes its own testable claims, and that those claims fail the tests. But "don't ask, don't tell" ID is much further from real science, and the "replacement scam" (misrepresent evolution under the pretense of "critical analysis" but don't dare mention any alternatives that themselves can be critically analyzed) completes the journey to "as far from science as you can get."

keith said: Can't you read the actual letter

Was she singled out as the only employee subject to any of the policies violated...absolutely not.

I've read both the complaint and the exhibits - looks like a systematic issue with between Comer and the higher ups at the TEA - Comer insists on doing her job - and higher up members of the TEA repeatedly tried to muzzle her
( I quote here from the TEA memo proposing disiplinary action- exhibit b on the complaint- emphasis mine)

"Ms Comer should understand that it is her JOB TO EXPLAIN LAW and RULE regarding the SCIENCE Texas Essencial Knowlege and Skills Test (TEKS), but not cross the line into providing guidence into methodology or opinions about instructional methodology..."

--now how the heck is anyone supposed to do that? explain the law in regards to whats on the test - but don't provide any guidence or have an opinion?

here's a hypothetical:
Teacher asks TEA/ Comer- "hey I know evoulution is on the TEKS, is it ok for me to talk about the 'weaknesses' in evoultion also?

would TEA would have Comer say "I cannot offer an opinion on what you teach in your class - but you must teach what's on the test"? (I suspect the leadership at the TEA would)

BULLSHIT

if Comer didn't determine if the teacher "discussing weaknesses" intends to inject content that a court might consider creationism, would be therefore be ILLIGAL - she wouldn't be doing her job - Comer might want our hypothetical teacher to know WHAT A COURT MIGHT CONSIDER CREATIONISM - maybe by

attending confernces where teachers would be to discussing these types of situations? send emails tagged "fyi" where teachers could inform themselves on these issues? - seems to me, this would be within her job reposibilities.

now - regarding 'neutrality'
Comer could (in theory) maintain a professionally neutral opinion on the scientific validity of ID etc. and still LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT TEACHING CREATIONISM IS CURRENTLY ILLEGAL and ID Has been found in a COURT OF LAW TO BE CREATIONISM RELABLED and therefore teaching it would be an exposure to future litigation - forwarding the email, (which appears to have been the final straw) to teachers so that they would know how to tell valid evolution content (on the TEKS) from ID again would see to me to be within the stated job responsibilities

what I think (opionin of mine) is that the TEA has been systematically removing those that don't share the ideology of ths upper management as a prelude to inject watered down content into the next round of textbooks (reminds me of the Gonzales attorney general issues/firings under Bush) Comer was a thorn in thier side

I hope that the state doesn't settle- so much DIRT will come out in trial/trials that Texas might actually get decent textbooks (due to the additional scrutiny)

Eric said:

keith said: Can't you read the actual letter

Well, let's do that. The second paragraph starts off "As the Director of Science, Ms. Comer should understand that it is her job to explain law and rule regarding the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills (TEKS)..." The Supreme Court stated in 1987 that it is illegal to teach creationism in public schools. Thus it is within Ms. Comer's job description to explain to people that it is illegal to teach creationism. Let's read a little further. Page 2, in the paragraph starting "On October..." "...the email clearly indicates that the group opposes teaching creationism in public education." So, Ms. Comer sent an email announcing a talk by a group who oppose teaching a subject its illegal to teach. This is clearly in her job description.

Was she singled out as the only employee subject to any of the policies violated...absolutely not.

You know this because...? You're making stuff up. You HOPE she wasn't singled out, but there is nothing whatsoever in the complaint to back up this hope.

On July 10, 2008 12:04 PM, keith said: “Can’t you read her resignation letter, thanking her employer for PERMITTING her to serve?” Keith has apparently never held a job at a professional or managerial level, and obviously doesn’t understand code words such as a resignation “to pursue personal interests,” (employee got fired) or “by agreement of both parties” (the employer is firing you).

“Can’t you read the actual letter listing a year of disciplinary actions resulting from clear policy violations, several counseling sessions, repeated instructions as to several policies other than neutrality and her ignoring all of these actions?” Maybe I was blinded by the letter of high commendation she had received the previous year, recommending Comer for a promotion before she was otherwise eligible for one. That doesn’t happen very often.

“Any moron who thinks the TEA did not have complete legal review of the decision, the record of policy violations by Comer on several policies, the several disciplinary reviews with her management over a one year prior period and carefully documented has apparently zero corporate HR experience, corporate legal schooling, and has never administered a layoff, downsizing, or dismissal.” Keith continues to think that we’re dealing with a corporation here. I’m not sure why he thinks that. Anyone who believes that a state-government agency does complete legal analyses before all firings has never worked for one. You could ask Pamela Richardson, one of Comers’ attorneys; she has had a number of years experience representing New York City in such matters.

“I surmise the average reading comprehension score by this team of true believers is somewhat below the state average for West Virgina.” Do I perceive an insult to West Virginia here? I’d heard that Keith moved from West Virginia to Louisiana and thereby raised the average IQ of both states.

For all practical purposes all of creationism is as far from science that you can get as they presuppose their answer by relying on dogma.

— Torbjörn Larsson, OM

There isn't a place on earth where this crowd could move that would result in raising the average IQ.

Comer was obviously a freewheeling loose cannon who was determined to do whatever the hell she wanted regardless of and in defiance of managements directives, policies, procedures, and was merely someone who sought to promote her self-importance.

Of course, if she should be reinstated I'll bet she has a happy and fulfilling life and career, everyone will be so pleased to work with and supervise her. The truth is that no one in this forum or her lawyers or national groups give a damn about her personally, she is just a pawn in their schemes to push secular humanist and philosophical materialism down the throat of every student in America no matter what and who they destroy. But of course personal destruction of anyone you disagree with is part and parcel of your methods. No telling the degree to which she has been manipulated into her present difficulties by your soulmates in various groups.

G. Gonzalez ( who legally and factually had a slam dunk case) is quite lucky that people didn't try to persuade him to file suit against ISU, but rather to move on and get a new position in a more decent environment. But that's a clear marker between you and us..we actually care about people and reject the Stalinist approach, "the end justifies the means".

I doubt Texas will roll over on this one.

The law known as the US constitution merely says that religious mythology may not be taught as fact in science classes to kids.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

observer totally confused: Raven, the first amendment is very simple: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

keith said: Comer was obviously a freewheeling loose cannon who was determined to do whatever the hell she wanted regardless of and in defiance of managements directives, policies, procedures, and was merely someone who sought to promote her self-importance. ... G. Gonzalez ( who legally and factually had a slam dunk case) is quite lucky that people didn't try to persuade him to file suit against ISU, but rather to move on and get a new position in a more decent environment. But that's a clear marker between you and us..we actually care about people and reject the Stalinist approach, "the end justifies the means". I doubt Texas will roll over on this one.

A second theory, call the "inverted Earth" theory, claims that we - our civilization - actually exists on the inside of the globe. We are held fast to the ground not by gravity, but by centrifugal force as the Earth rotates. The stars, so goes the theory, are twinkling chunks of ice suspended high in the air, and the illusion of day and night is caused by a rotating central sun that is half brilliant, half dark. Cyrus Teed, an alchemist from Utica, N.Y., was one of the first people to popularize this idea. So obsessed was he with the idea that he founded a religion based on it, changed his name to Koresh, and established a commune for Koreshanity in Chicago in 1888. In Germany, independently of the Koreshans, another group also was founded that adhered to the inverted Earth idea, and it was this concept that was accepted by some segments of the Nazi hierarchy.

Hörbiger explains the origin of the universe with the collision of a glowing mass of gigantic proportions with a smaller mass of solid ice. This led to an enormous explosion and the creation of our solar system. Ever since, existence has been based on an eternal struggle between fire and ice. Note that this has strong similarities with Norse mythology (see Ymir). The theory also states that Earth created temporal gravitation fields, attracting smaller planets/moons made of ice. A planet would be caught in the field and gravitate around Earth for some time before eventually colliding with it. At that time, natural catastrophes would occur all over the world.[1] In a recuperating period, the planet would exist without a moon until the next planet would be attracted. Hörbiger believed that the current version of the Moon was the sixth since the existence of Earth and that a collision would be inevitable. Believers in Welteislehre argue that the great flood described in the Bible and the destruction of Atlantis were caused by previous collisions.

keith said: Comer was obviously a freewheeling loose cannon who was determined to do whatever the hell she wanted regardless of and in defiance of managements directives, policies, procedures, and was merely someone who sought to promote her self-importance.

...she is just a pawn in their schemes to push secular humanist and philosophical materialism down the throat of every student in America no matter what and who they destroy.

I doubt Texas will roll over on this one.

PvM,

Having been in two organizations where there were civil suits considered quite significant and being schooled by the legal teams in each case on a regular basis, having given multiple depositions at each company as a matter of my professional responsibility, I of course recognize your personal attack as just another exercise by the empty suit crowd.

For sure the Comer matter has perhaps a 50/50 chance of succeeding in its claims because good lawyering and the correct judge can always get a bad decision...most people realize on average these things are 50/50.

If you think your lectures on abiogenesis, better than thou lectures, claims to moral, ethical and theological superiority have any validity with me you are dreaming.

I have been observing this crowd since 1974 when they single handedly prevented further publication of technical articles in Popular Mechanics by Forest Mims (I believe he is still the most prolific and widely acclaimed author of practical technical books on record) simply because of his faith and disagreement with the scientific community on the explanatory power of evolution, writ large.

Since I was alarmed that the evolutionary community could carry out such brownshirt actions against someone with his credentials and abilities, I have continued to follow the raw power and ruthless actions of this group as it pushed its atheist, Christ hating agenda into all things educational under the guise of promoting good science, protecting science, etc.

Regret ably, to protect their position in the community, avoid persecution themselves, and continue to enjoy a little ego stroking and "consider themselves wise" some Christians, like you, have compromised all essential beliefs, compartmentalized their lives, and caved. I would be wary of compliments received from this crowd.

I am thankful that I will never be associated with these Christ hating zealots and thus will not be in the position of explaining my sellout for personal gain and prestige from their approval and association..at the appropriate time.

Thirty pieces of silver is apparently still a sufficient price for some.

I would rather have OBL into my home than the principals of this dreaded cult. They are much more dangerous to America, western civilization, and my grand-kids than all the radical Muslim terrorists in the world.

No one is fooled by this protect science, back to the dark ages silliness..the agenda is nothing less than the complete secularization of every aspect of American life, the destruction of any faith, and eventually the destruction of any adherents by the sword if necessary.

This has been seen before in Russia under Stalin, in Germany under Hitler, in China under Mao, etc. and we have much to fear.

It is good to have become "acquainted" with ones avowed enemies as it may yet be of benefit.

Thanks for the motivation to continue my financial support of those dedicated to at least slowing the mongrel hordes in their progress.

keith said: I have been observing this crowd since 1974 when they single handedly prevented further publication of technical articles in Popular Mechanics by Forest Mims (I believe he is still the most prolific and widely acclaimed author of practical technical books on record) simply because of his faith and disagreement with the scientific community on the explanatory power of evolution, writ large.

I don't understand why Keith continues to egregiously slur Hitler and the Nazis. Fighting atheism, communism and materialist science, as well as slowing the mongrel hordes in their progress, were primary Nazi goals.

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members.

Marion,

You prove my point that claiming to present one cause in order to propagandize the student population, subvert the religious, and invade the court system a cult of zealots can effect the entire takeover of a society by the Nazi mentality and eventually murder all opponents, particularly those of religious heritage.

I have seen the face behind your mask and it is quite recognizable.

keith said: ...Since I was alarmed that the evolutionary community could carry out such brownshirt actions against someone with his credentials and abilities, I have continued to follow the raw power and ruthless actions of this group as it pushed its atheist, Christ hating agenda into all things educational under the guise of promoting good science, protecting science, etc. ... I am thankful that I will never be associated with these Christ hating zealots and thus will not be in the position of explaining my sellout for personal gain and prestige from their approval and association..at the appropriate time. Thirty pieces of silver is apparently still a sufficient price for some. I would rather have OBL into my home than the principals of this dreaded cult. They are much more dangerous to America, western civilization, and my grand-kids than all the radical Muslim terrorists in the world. No one is fooled by this protect science, back to the dark ages silliness..the agenda is nothing less than the complete secularization of every aspect of American life, the destruction of any faith, and eventually the destruction of any adherents by the sword if necessary. ...

The arrogance displayed by the evolutionist class is totally unwarrented [sic]. The facts warrent [sic] the violent expulsion of all evolutionists from civilized society. I am quite serious that their danger to society is so great that, in a sane society, they would be, at a minimum, denied a vote in the administration of the society, as well as any job where they might influence immature humans, e.g., scout, or youth, leader, teacher and, obviously, professor. Oh, by the way… What is the chance evolutionists will vote or teach in the Kingdom of God?

keith said:This has been seen before in Russia under Stalin, in Germany under Hitler, in China under Mao, etc. and we have much to fear.

keith said: If you think your lectures on abiogenesis, better than thou lectures, claims to moral, ethical and theological superiority have any validity with me you are dreaming.

keith said: Marion, You prove my point that claiming to present one cause in order to propagandize the student population, subvert the religious, and invade the court system a cult of zealots can effect the entire takeover of a society by the Nazi mentality and eventually murder all opponents, particularly those of religious heritage. I have seen the face behind your mask and it is quite recognizable.

I have been observing this crowd since 1974 when they single handedly prevented further publication of technical articles in Popular Mechanics by Forest Mims (I believe he is still the most prolific and widely acclaimed author of practical technical books on record)

stevaroni said:

I have been observing this crowd since 1974 when they single handedly prevented further publication of technical articles in Popular Mechanics by Forest Mims (I believe he is still the most prolific and widely acclaimed author of practical technical books on record)

Wow, he was forced to stop publishing in 1974. I wonder why his amateur electronics articles were all over the place when I was in high school in the early 80's.

keith said: I have been observing this crowd since 1974 when they single handedly prevented further publication of technical articles in Popular Mechanics by Forest Mims...

We're starting to drift off of Chris Comer and the TEA...

Which, I assume, is the entire idea as Keith works hard to derail another thread.

Speaking of Nazis, I find it very odd that those who would claim that the Nazis were obsessive "Darwinists," and yet, saw it necessary to expel one Professor Rudolph Kaufmann, despite being an expert "Darwinist" who specialized in studying Cambrian trilobites, from his position as a University professor.

That is, it seems extremely odd that the Nazis would fire a scientist as talented as Professor Kaufmann, especially since he devised his own explanation of punctuated equilibrium at least 4 decades before before the Darwinist (sic) Stephen J. Gould did.

stevaroni said: We're starting to drift off of Chris Comer and the TEA... Which, I assume, is the entire idea as Keith works hard to derail another thread.

Ah, yes, keith invokes Forrest Mims III. He certainly wasn’t barred from Popular Electronics in January 1975. At the time my kids were high on model rocketry, and I was involved with IBM’s first attempt at a personal computer, the IBM 5100.[1] So we all knew about Maj. Forrest Mims, USAF, the college government major who designed cool electronics projects you could build inexpensively. Now, of course, he has worked his way up to Fellow of the Discovery Institute and of the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design, where in 2001 he wrote an article for their captive journal on “Spectral Absorption and Response.”[2]

And here’s a good anecdote for Keith to tell. Mims alleged that Scientific American refused to hire him to take over the Amateur Scientist column in 1988 because of his creationist beliefs. So guess what happened, Keith? The ACLU offered to take his case.[3]

For the present, Mims spends his time denying global warming, and contending that a scientist had advocated genocide to his students..

====

[1] I built one of the first 500 Altairs. I sold it 2 years later, thinking myself lucky to recoup the entire cost. Now, of course, you can’t touch one on eBay for less than....

[2] Subtitled: “Does the association of spectral absorption bands in sunlight with the spectral response of photoreceptors in plants imply coincidence, adaptation, or design?” (I think I know the answer without reading the article.)

[3] But Mims refused their help. The record does not say why.

keith said: PvM, After you read and watch A. E. Wildersmith as I recommended get back to me and explain your disagreements ..that is if a world class scientist's writings have any impact on your clouded mind...you can skip the parts about Christianity if you find those distasteful as he was a powerful witness as well as scientist. But I'm sure your committment to Myers, Dawkins, Harris, and the other Christ haters has pretty well blocked your mind at this point. Be thankful for Grace, Keith

Because it was the wrong kind of science, obviously. Just ask the nutbar a few comments back.

Steveroni,

Your post is an absolutely crystal example of the total dishonesty that permeates this cult.

I never said Mims was forced to stop publishing in the sense you wish to erroneously convey, but only that he was blacklisted from ever publishing in Mechanix Illustrated after that period, theretofore he was a regular in that publication.

I remain convinced and believe your faction is incapable of intellectually honest dialogue.

Finding one extremist statement by an individual who professes to be a Creationist and coloring all of your opponents in the discussion is another typical Neo-Nazi tactic that is utterly frightening.

If you can find Miller, Collins, or Dobzhansky being denigrated in my posts please illustrate. Most of their writing is elegant, courteous, reasoned, scholarly, intellectually honest and they uniformly condemn the religious hatred ingrained in the depraved, neo-nazi element rhetoric and actions so prominent on the evo post sites.

There is the majority science community who go to work, do their job, perform admirably and never even consider the thoughts and acts of the radical minority that happen to be activist in their neo-nazi persecution of all ideas contrary to their own and to the destruction of individuals so associated.

I have read Collins book on the subject and have complete respect for his position though I cannot adopt it in complete detail. He is an honorable and supremely accomplished individual. He is undoubtedly hated and despised by those on this forum as a practicing Christian.

Stuart is another example of a despicable, lying sewer pig.

I referred specifically to the book Origin of Life and if you can call his three earned PhD's as qualifying him as a druggist that is further proof of your deranged hatred.

I personally checked out the facts of his education, teaching credentials, his debate with Dawkins, and such in 1988 and found them impeccable.

See PvM, another lying pig compatriot attacking an honest and accomplished scientist because of his Christianity and opposing views.

Let's give credit where credit where credit is due. Not only has keith once again derailed a thread, he has people talking to him about who hates Christ the most among other irrelevancies. Say what you will about keith, the man is a master at what he does.

keith said: Stuart is another example of a despicable, lying sewer pig. I referred specifically to the book Origin of Life and if you can call his three earned PhD's as qualifying him as a druggist that is further proof of your deranged hatred. I personally checked out the facts of his education, teaching credentials, his debate with Dawkins, and such in 1988 and found them impeccable. See PvM, another lying pig compatriot attacking an honest and accomplished scientist because of his Christianity and opposing views.

keith said:I have read Collins book on the subject and have complete respect for his position though I cannot adopt it in complete detail. He is an honorable and supremely accomplished individual. He is undoubtedly hated and despised by those on this forum as a practicing Christian.

Thread Closure Imminent

Since it's drifting far from Comer's suit, and newer posts have finally appeared (hurrah), it's time to shut 'er down. Get your final licks in if you can.
-Dave

PvM said: In fact, contrary to what I have seen here recently, he at least understands the sciences.

he has people talking to him about who hates Christ the most among other irrelevancies...

keith said: PvM (imposter) When I'm dealing with totally untruthful people, abysmally ignorant outside their narrow sub-subject of science, malicious, mentally deranged true believers it is best to check out the facts independent of anything they have posted. This is particularly true of people who compartmentalize their world view and their faith, and their vocation in to little logic tight boxes for gain, prestigue, career, lucre and approval. Lets see multiple documented cases of policy violations, counseling sessions, and documentation on file for a one year period at least, continuing violations, ignoring policies in general.hmmmmmmm! All of which are included in the letter.

keith said: Stuart is another example of a despicable, lying sewer pig. I referred specifically to the book Origin of Life and if you can call his three earned PhD's as qualifying him as a druggist that is further proof of your deranged hatred. I personally checked out the facts of his education, teaching credentials, his debate with Dawkins, and such in 1988 and found them impeccable. See PvM, another lying pig compatriot attacking an honest and accomplished scientist because of his Christianity and opposing views.

keith said: Stuart is another example of a despicable, lying sewer pig. I referred specifically to the book Origin of Life and if you can call his three earned PhD's as qualifying him as a druggist that is further proof of your deranged hatred. I personally checked out the facts of his education, teaching credentials, his debate with Dawkins, and such in 1988 and found them impeccable. See PvM, another lying pig compatriot attacking an honest and accomplished scientist because of his Christianity and opposing views.

Olorin said: Mims alleged that Scientific American refused to hire him to take over the Amateur Scientist column in 1988 because of his creationist beliefs. So guess what happened, Keith? The ACLU offered to take his case.

ultimately, the truth will win.

Abraham Lincoln: How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

observer said:

ultimately, the truth will win.

On this point you are 100% correct. Truth cannot be suppressed completely forever. It always remains a constant and there will always be some who seek truth. "You shall KNOW the truth..." That day is coming. Abraham Lincoln had some remarkable things to say about truth.

Abraham Lincoln: How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

THE FAT LADY HAS SUNG
... and the thread is closed. At least it was reasonably well-behaved until the wrap up.

Stay tuned to the Thumb for developments on the Comer/Texas suit.

Cheers, Dave