We Were Invited to Expelled Conference Call

I'm not leaving this comment. I didn't just write that. This comment proves that I didn't write it.

Damn! Even when I try, I can't be as transparent a liar as Mathis.

Stein is a complete non story and as RD pointed out is completely unknown here in the UK, so imagine my surprise when I saw the following in today's paper:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2268344,00.html

(apologies if this has already been posted)

I was on the call, and this is just a pile of baloney.

Myers crashed the call. It's not about being a listener on the call, it's about barging in rudely, uninvited, to disrupt the whole thing.

You say, "We Were Invited to Expelled Conference Call." You were not invited to speak, much less to do so the way Myers did. The call was designed for all call-in attendees to be muted, and this was clearly stated at the beginning of the call. (Questions were taken by email.)

It was stated earlier than that, actually. Let me quote from the invitation you reproduced above:

This is a unique, exclusive opportunity for you to listen to Ben Stein and to ask him questions live, via e-mail.

Myers admits, on Pharyngula, that he gamed the system.

Careful what you call a lie.

Dear God, these people are simply beyond belief. Fraud is too mild a term.

Dear "Name",

I am generally careful whom I call a liar, but if you are choosing to accuse PZed of "crashing" and "gaming" I, and most people, think you would have the intestinal fortitude to use your real name to slur him, especially since you were one of the people who "was on the call."

So you were a witness? Identify yourself and let everyone see for themselves how far you can be trusted.

"Myers admits, on Pharyngula, that he gamed the system."

You didn't provide a link
and just assumed people wouldn't go and check up you, didn't you?

Sounds like yet another load of Mathis incompetence (as if it could get worse), he'll be lucky if he ever manages to make road safety films after this.

Name is not giving his name because of fear of the PT mafia. The Darwinists will attack his home and family. It is really scary out there for those poor IDists.

it’s about barging in rudely, uninvited, to disrupt the whole thing.

Myers admits, on Pharyngula, that he gamed the system

Pardon my French here, but I find myself with no other way to express this.

Name, whomever you are who are involved with this charade called Expelled, you are a fucking liar. I cannot limit myself to simply calling you a liar; that would be an insult to liars the world over. You are beyond dishonest.

You are a corruption, a pox, a disease. You go far beyond dishonesty; prevarication would be a step up. You are an insult to humanity and to society. I doubt that you have a backbone; even the most rudimentary of vertebrates knows better than to be this blatantly, evilly, disgustingly and obviously false.

I think I know, though, why the people involved with Expelled are so obsessed with Hitler; you've learned a lot from the propaganda methods employed by Joseph Goebels. In fact, you've outdone him. The baseness you display would make even him blush.

Mike O'Risal: Pardon my French here, but I find myself with no other way to express this.

"Name" evidently lost his link back here, or else had better things to do than 'splain himself. I offer him another couple of hours before declaring him a coward and confirm the theory that he is a liar.

Also, "Expelled" is starting to make the dopey, dishonest, unfunny clowns behind it look like (the very funny) Yosemite Sam in the classic "High Diving Hare."

PLEASE tell me he recorded the call?

Turnabout is fair play, I think.

Yes, "name" has identified the important point here. Never mind the flagrant lying. Never mind the propagandizing. Never mind the distortions and slander and cheating. What's REALLY important here is that PZ Meyers actually SPOKE when he wasn't supposed to! Gasp! How vile! Don't those ignoramuses out there know when to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP! This is all about open inquiry after all!

So the question is: Did they intentionally invite pro science people with the intention of later accusing them of crashing the call, or did they just blindly send out a mass email without concern for where it went?

mplavcan: Yes, "name" has identified the important point here. Never mind the flagrant lying. Never mind the propagandizing. Never mind the distortions and slander and cheating. What's REALLY important here is that PZ Meyers actually SPOKE when he wasn't supposed to! Gasp! How vile! Don't those ignoramuses out there know when to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP! This is all about open inquiry after all!

PZ is not a media journalist AND he was not invited....Again!! Why am I not surprised? Why would they purposefully omit PZ's personal email from the list? Is PZ part of "the crew", and not an evo-atheist icon anymore? Is he only a part of the crew now....a janitor perhaps? a cheerleader? public relations disaster?

Yes, he's part of the crew - read the story.

Is he only a part of the crew now….a janitor perhaps? a cheerleader? public relations disaster?

Nomad,

It seems that they semi-intentionally invited pro-science people, but they didn't intend the pro-science people to be able to talk. PZ called in early and overheard the organizers telling each other the special code needed to not be muted. He then disconnected and reconnected with that code.

So, he didn't really hack the system; he took advantage of their sloppiness.

"You just give the other side ammunition."

Codswallop. If Myers had said nothing, he would be accused of being afraid to speak up. They will spin ANYTHING he did or didn't do to serve their own ends.

LawnBoy: Nomad, It seems that they semi-intentionally invited pro-science people, but they didn't intend the pro-science people to be able to talk. PZ called in early and overheard the organizers telling each other the special code needed to not be muted. He then disconnected and reconnected with that code. So, he didn't really hack the system; he took advantage of their sloppiness.

I think it might have been more decent of Myers to have followed the rules.

We needn’t stoop to the IDiots’ level, now. That’s like torturing terrorists in Guantanomo because “they do it too.” You just give the other side ammunition.

You'd think someone who lies as much as Mathis does would be a lot better at it.

Why am I not surprised? Why would they purposefully omit PZ’s personal email from the list? Is PZ part of “the crew”, and not an evo-atheist icon anymore? Is he only a part of the crew now….a janitor perhaps? a cheerleader? public relations disaster?

Skepchick is TEH R0X0RZ.

http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=1190

I mean, at the very worst he embarrassed them a bit.

You were not invited to speak, much less to do so the way Myers did. The call was designed for all call-in attendees to be muted, and this was clearly stated at the beginning of the call.

Mithrandir nails it above. This raises the same point that comes up with regard to the Minnesota screening P.Z. was expelled from: In both cases, the question isn't why did P.Z. participate "uninvited," it's why wasn't he invited in the first place?

By day, I'm a Cubicle Drone with an investment firm, and each financial quarter, I dial in way more corporate earnings conference calls than I even like to think about. IIRC, calls where no one is allowed to ask questions happen, but they're rare, and usually mean the company in question isn't doing well and knows they'll only get questions they don't have good or happy answers to and would rather avoid.

More broadly, creationist hypocrisy is obvious once again here. They've been lying about science and scientists' beliefs and behavior for generations, rarely more egregiously than the Expelled producers. But they consider it a dreadful ethical lapse when someone busts in unsolicited for a minute or two during a long session of lying, to call them on it.

I suspect that this was a setup to justify their previous claims. Seriously, they waved a red flag and PZ charged it. I'm not blaming him, I do think he was manipulated this time.

You people are idiots. And this post is inaccurate -- please, Myers even admitted that he was misbehaving when he used the code.

This stunt of Myers' has played right into their hands. Up until this point, the Expelled group were spinning like mad and tripping all over their own lies. They had got so desperate that they were resorting to slander, accusing Myers of being sneaky when he signed up for the RSVP. And then what does he do? He goes and gets sneaky with that conference-call code. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

He should have left well enough alone. They were doing a good enough job of hanging themselves without any need for help. Now he has stuffed it.

Something brings Wile E. Coyote to mind. "Is that the edge of the cliff back there? Backpedal! Backpedal! ... "

Acme is still in business, I gather.

Having now listened to the audio clip at skepchick I still think the Expelled clowns set PZ up; there's a certain sound in someone's voice when they are "surprised" he's on the line. And they let him go on for a few minutes at least. It doesn't matter: they won't get much mileage out of this, PZ made the necessary point and gained some press attention and the ID crowd is getting shriller and closer to the edge. Check out some of the recent posts on Uncommon Descent.

But the other clip where Ben Stein "admits" he's part of the intelligentsia . . . now that made me laugh. It almost makes you wonder if the whole Expelled thing is a parody designed to take down ID.

Inappropriate conference protocol perhaps but even PZ doesn't deny this. Had PZ lost his cool or gained little ground then the 'Expelled' crew would have garnered a decisive PR victory. Certainly fire was being played with! But PZ stole their thunder in front of the entire press unencumbered. However this plays out, for good or for bad, this has the hallmarks of a man with conviction and enough finesse to execute a precision strike against the goose-stepping legions of ignorance.

Carry on PZ

E Fulwood:

Turnabout is fair play, I think.

Eh, I think it might have been more decent of Myers to have followed the rules. We needn't stoop to the IDiots' level, now. That's like torturing terrorists in Guantanomo because "they do it too." You just give the other side ammunition.

nerdiah: You people are idiots. And this post is inaccurate -- please, Myers even admitted that he was misbehaving when he used the code. This stunt of Myers' has played right into their hands. Up until this point, the Expelled group were spinning like mad and tripping all over their own lies. They had got so desperate that they were resorting to slander, accusing Myers of being sneaky when he signed up for the RSVP. And then what does he do? He goes and gets sneaky with that conference-call code. Stupid, stupid, stupid. He should have left well enough alone. They were doing a good enough job of hanging themselves without any need for help. Now he has stuffed it.

"Talent" available for interviews on the call will include:

PZ is just playing with these clowns. If he really wanted to get nasty, he would take them to court for the release form he signed under false pretenses. When he won, he would then demand that they remove his segment from the movie. He would then block release of the movie until they complied. He would then have Dawkins do the same. He would also have Harvard sue for copyright infringement and block the release for even longer. But why bother, it seems like they are the ones who don't want people to see the movie for some reason.

They started all of this childish nonsense. Did they really think that everyone would just sit still for it? They already knew that they were being watched. Why repeat the same mistake that they made with the RSVP fiasco? Why give PZ another chance to make them look foolish? Why cry about it when he did? It all pales in comparison to the original sin they committed. Now that was illegal, that was immoral.

Of course, this won't be the end of it either. If the movie ever does really get released, I'm sure things will escalate to even higher levels of silliness. These goons will probably have armed guards at the doors for the grand opening, complete with nazi uniforms!

...and to ask him questions live, via e-mail.

If you can ask Mark Mathis (and Ben Stein) these questions either at the "EXPELLED" website or one of their radio interviews, then please do so. They are ones which ought to be asked of them:

1) If Mathis's original intent was to produce a "balanced" documentary on the "evolution vs. ID debate", then why did he purchase the domain name "EXPELLED" at the time of the first interviews?

2) Why did Mathis deceive scientists like PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins into thinking that he was producing a "balanced" documentary entitled "Crossroads"?

3) Since Ben Stein claims to "believe" in evolution, then how can he justify his participation in an anti-evolution, pro-ID documentary film?

4) When did Ben Stein know the true purpose behind the interviews he was conducting?

5) How can Mathis (or Stein or both) insist that mainstream science is "persecuting" ID "scientists" like Gonzalez and Sternberg, when the Discovery Institute has attacked its critics, ranging from the likes of biologists Ken Miller and David Levin to graduate student Abbie Smith and former paleobiologist John Kwok?

6) How can they accuse mainstream science of "censoring" "ID scientists" when Discovery Institute Senior Fellow Bill Dembski asked the U. S. Department of Homeland Security to investigate eminent University of Texas ecologist Eric Pianka and asked Amazon.com to delete John Kwok's harsh, but accurate, one star review of Dembski's book "The Design of Life"?

7) Is Mathis (or Stein or both) familiar with the Discovery Institute's "Wedge Document"? Can he summarize its main points? Does he realize that it is an anti-science, Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fascist document advocating the Discovery Institute's "vision" for a future United States?

8) Why was the release date of "EXPELLED" pushed back from February 12th to April 18th? Is a potential reason the fact that "EXPELLED" had "borrowed" without seeking its permission, Harvard University's cell animation video?

Appreciatively yours,

John Kwok

Nancey Murphy Wikipedia: In 2006 Murphy claimed she faced a campaign to get her fired after she expressed her view that intelligent design was not only poor theology, but "so stupid, I don't want to give them my time."[4] Murphy, who believes in evolution, said that one of the founding members of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, called a trustee in an attempt to get her fired. Johnson admits calling the trustee, but denies being for any action taken against her.[4] Murphy is a member of the Board of Directors of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences and an ordained minister in the Church of the Brethren. Murphy serves as an editorial advisor for Theology and Science, Theology Today, and Christianity Today.

Eden and Evolution Washingtonpost.com 2/05/2006 "Nancey Murphy, a religious scholar at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., said she faced a campaign to get her fired because she expressed the view that intelligent design was not only poor theology, but "so stupid, I don't want to give them my time." Murphy, who believes in evolution, said she had to fight to keep her job after one of the founding members of the intelligent design movement, legal theorist Phillip Johnson, called a trustee at the seminary and tried to get her fired. "His tactic has always been to fight dirty when anyone attacks his ideas," she said. "For a long time afterward, I would tell reporters I don't want to comment, and I don't want you to say I don't want to comment. I'm tired of being careful." Johnson denied he had tried to get Murphy fired. He said that he had spoken with a former trustee of the seminary who was himself upset with Murphy but that he was not responsible for any action taken against her. "It's the Darwinists who hold the power in academia and who threaten the professional status and livelihoods of anyone who disagrees," Johnson said. "They feel to teach anything but their orthodoxy is an act of professional treason.""

Slapping on the ol' tinfoil hat for a second, I have to wonder why people were on the line discussing the special code required to talk on the line. To be able to talk on the line, they must have already used the code.

With the hat off, however, I found the recording to be hilarious.

Hi raven,

I haven't forgotten Nancy Murphy, but I truly believe that what my "buddy" Bill Dembski did to Professor Pianka and I are acts which are far worse. There's certainly more of a "paper trail" with respect to his mendacious acts against us both than there is for Professor Murphy. However, these acts merely show not only how despicable these Fascist buffoons are, but alas, how dangerous too.

Appreciatively yours,

John

ellazimm: I suspect that this was a setup to justify their previous claims. Seriously, they waved a red flag and PZ charged it. I'm not blaming him, I do think he was manipulated this time.

Shrike: I agree that the round was won by PZ. Of all the things he could have objected to he picked the issue that (one would hope) most reasonable people would question when it was not surrounded by reams of paranoia. Once again, the Expelled crowd proved incapable of handling the situation. I wonder if Kevin Miller is getting tired of carrying the weight on the blogosphere? I do respect his allowing dissenting views on his blog and attempting to engage in a dialogue. I know Mr Mathis is busy but he's not even trying to justify his stance in any kind of meaningful way. But I guess it's not really about meaning is it?

I think it's clear PZ "crashed" this one (by speaking, the PT crew invite obviously allowed him to listen.) Overhearing the code, no matter how carelessly revealed, doesn't justify using it.

The fact that they wanted a "conference call" where they could pre-screen the question says loads about the honesty of the whole endeavor. However, it's their event and their choice how incompetently and dishonestly they want to run it. They obviously didn't invite him to speak.

Does that mean I think PZ shouldn't have done it ? Not necessarily. It was hilarious, and richly deserved on the Expelled side. Injecting some reality into their carefully scripted propaganda show is worthwhile. Sure, it was mischief, but given that he left when asked, pretty minor mischief.

Pardon my French here, but I find myself with no other way to express this.

PZ Myers is only doing a Bueller impersonation, what's the big deal? Ben Stein of all people should appreciate that.

3) Since Ben Stein claims to “believe” in evolution, then how can he justify his participation in an anti-evolution, pro-ID documentary film?

— John Kwok

One could argue that PZs hacking the call constitutes lowering the discourse, but, in Dembski's own words "[...]let’s admit that our aim, as proponents of intelligent design, is to beat naturalistic evolution, and the scientific materialism that undergirds it, back to the Stone Age. Our opponents, therefore, are merely returning the favor."

So it's not like they would really have much of a beef if we were to accept their terms of engagement.

You could say that conducting a large propaganda campaign incompetently constitutes leading with the chin.

Apparently Wired thinks PZ 'crashed' the press conference:

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/03/renowned-biolog.html