Like "Expelled," "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" had Net Buzz - So, Why did it TANK?

PvM:

For example you did not bother to comment on the documentation showing that the Nazis had a plan to persecute the church. Inconvenient fact that—let’s pretend we didn’t know about it. But you are simpleminded–if the Nazis used Christian language at times, then certainly they were bonafide Christians and their ideology was perfectly aligned with Christ’s teaching.

Which church? You also stated

This is especially true in light of recently declassified documents (the last five or six years) that point out that the Nazis had a master plan to persecute the Christian Church. (The document study is led by Rutgers University Law School, not exactly your garden-variety fundy institution

Could you provide us with the necessary details? What master plan, which Christian Churches, who did the document study?

Stanton,

I already posted a starting link here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1753469.stm

Here is a link to a site at Rutgers Law, which has the documents:

http://www.lawandreligion.com/nurinst1.shtml

I was fixing PvM's malformed html syntax, actually.

Thanks for fixing it...

Let me clarify my comments. First of all I have no patience for Nazism and Nazis, the question I am interested in is understanding the role of the Christian Church in the rise of Nazism as well as during the 3rd Reich and afterwards.

As I understand it, Christians are not free from blame as they not only supported in many cases the Nazis but also seem to have preceded the rise of Nazism in Germany with their position.

While it is also clear that there was a (small) group of Christians who spoke out against Nazism, and were persecuted, the German National Church seems to have remained fairly unaffected. And although the Nazis did not control the Catholic church, they became good friends with the Pope of those days.

What is also interesting is the somewhat asymmetric relationship where Christians seem to be supportive of Nazism but Nazis not feeling very warm about Christians.

As is the case with so many of these issues, pointing fingers is not as simple as it may seem.

When I first heard about the OSC's report, I did some reading on the topic of the Christian Church during the Nazi period, and I would love to see more research on these OSC papers, which were meant to prosecute the Nazis for, amongst others, religious persecution. However, the extent of said persecution remains unclear to me so far.

OSC read OSS

I've wondered if the Left Behind: Eternal Forces videogame was a training exercise to help certain Christian youth (e.g. future Blackwater employees) get over the squeamishness of killing non-Christians. Especially after they tried to market it to the troops in Iraq.

Now it’s my turn for some questions:...

Unsurprisingly, what "Eternal Forces" faced is what "Expelled" is facing now: a concerted campaign of lies. People who have actually played "Eternal Forces" instead of mindlessly believing what some lying moron on a viciously prejudiced website wrote (much like PZ Myers and others are doing to "Expelled") have seen the truth. There is, in fact, absolutely no call to "convert or kill" unbelievers in the game. Unlike most games marketed towards kids these days (e.g. Grand Theft Auto, Halo, et al), it is a game that vehemently and repeatedly promotes peaceful solutions over violence. There is no gunning down of non-Christian characters who refuse to convert while Christian characters shout "Praise the Lord!" There is no reward for resorting to violence and, in fact, doing so can and will lead to losing the game. Heck, Talk To Action was so dishonest with their coverage that they faked screenshots from the game, photoshopping blood into one (for which they had to retract and apologize for) and in another, photoshopping crosses over the heads of anti-Christian Global Community soldiers as they gunned down unarmed Christian Tribulation Force characters (who were given Jewish and Islamic symbols over their heads and bodies).

Neutral reviewers have agreed that many lies have been spread about the game:

IGN: To keep the balance of power in your favor, you'll have to find non-violent ways to avoid getting killed. Your units will definitely fight back in a life or death situation but, for the most part, you want to either avoid your enemies or have a ready plan to convert to your side using musicians and disciples. This gets much harder as the game progresses.

ArsTechnica.com: Many groups have made inaccurate statements about this game that need to be corrected. For one thing, it is not particularly violent. While there are violent aspects of the game, the game makes it clear that shooting is the last resort. Second, it is not hateful to other religions. It does have an agenda, and I think you need to know that going in, but there's no bashing of other faiths. …the game is fun, it'll keep parents happy with its light levels of violence, and it'll be sold at video game stores, religious book stores, and everywhere else people spend money on God. This game will certainly get the message out.

GameSpy: The other "controversial" aspect of the game is its explicit connection to evangelical Christian philosophy. Here too, the hysteria is seriously overblown. Within the game itself, the amount of proselytizing is kept to a minimum. Units bow their heads to pray in order to replenish their "spirit" resource and giving a unit orders may elicit a response like "For the Lord!" or "In His name!" Prayer scrolls with Biblical verses are also available as power-ups that can call down angels for bonuses, but anyone looking for explicit "Kill the unbelievers!"-style content to justify their fear of the game won't find it here. The biggest "message" portion of the game is actually the "Learn more" screens that become available after each mission. These display interesting text passages about the history of Christianity and CliffsNotes versions of aspects of evangelical theology while playing cuts from top-selling Christian musical acts (with a convenient "buy the album" link to the Internet).

Even the Anti-Defamation League (no friend to evangelical Christians) had this to say while otherwise condemning the theology/eschatology presented in the game: Conversion to Christianity in the game is not depicted as forcible in nature, and violence is not rewarded in the game.

Gary Hurd:

LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces ($29.95 Retail** Value) for free!*

and

* A nominal shipping or download service fee is assessed by Trymedia. The shipping option is available only to residents within the continental United States.

Creationist tardmeisters always lie, they cannot help themselves. "Free" isn't "Free" in creatoland.

jeh: I've wondered if the Left Behind: Eternal Forces videogame was a training exercise to help certain Christian youth (e.g. future Blackwater employees) get over the squeamishness of killing non-Christians. Especially after they tried to market it to the troops in Iraq.

So Jason, I take it that the players do not have armaments of any kind, but if they do, they don't use them. Never. Absolutely no killing--ever.

Kind of goes against the Left Behind Tribulation Force philosophy doesn't it? That you should deal with the antichrist and his minions through non-violent resistance.

chunkdz: Paul Burnett:

No, the Left Behind game is mentioned because it resembles Expelled in that it is another lame attempt to profit from its perceived base of naive fundamentalists.

Then Ben Stein is a threat to science?

Oh give me a break—that is beyond stupid. Which part of “Love your neighbor as yourself” sounds as if it could be mapped onto Nazism?

— Heddle

Left Behind: Tribulation Forces - Game description LEFT BEHIND: Tribulation Forces is the second chapter in the LEFT BEHIND PC Game series and includes the first chapter, Eternal Forces. With new graphics, missions, units, maps, modes of play and more, Tribulation Forces expands upon the real-time strategy world based upon the best-selling LEFT BEHIND book series created by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Join the ultimate fight of Good against Evil, commanding the Tribulation Forces, the Global Community Peacekeepers or the American Militia Forces! · Lead the Tribulation Force from the book series, including Rayford, Chloe, Buck and Bruce against Nicolae Carpathia – the AntiChrist over 45 missions. · Conduct spiritual warfare using the power of PRAYER and WORSHIP as more powerful weapons than guns and tanks. · Recover ancient scriptures and witness spectacular Angelic and Demonic activity as a direct consequence of your choices. · Fight against negative spiritual influences - the Antichrist and his forces. · Command your forces through intense battles across a breathtaking, authentic depiction of New York City . · Control more than 40 units types - from Prayer Warrior and Worship Leaders to Spies, Special Forces and Battle Tanks! · Enjoy a robust single player experience across dozens of New York City maps in Story Mode – fighting in China Town, SoHo , Uptown, East Shorline and more! · Play multiplayer games with the Tribulation Forces, American Militia Forces or the AntiChrist's Global Community Peacekeepers with up to eight players via LAN or over the Internet! You can even check your wins, losses, and ranking via online leaderboards! · Play the all new skirmish mode allowing infinite replay value. Play with or against computer opponents by yourself or online with your firends over 20+ maps! ·Contrary to misinformation on the web, this game does not include references to any other religion. Also, there is NO killing in the name of God, and NO convert or die missions.

Jason's full of it.

Of course the LB game has killing. There's no blood- and the core of the gameplay is "saving" (recruiting) neutrals and levelling your own forces up- but you're fighting against whatever they call the U.N. Global Peacekeepers, or something. And also rock stars (rock stars are Satan's minions, and can sway units over to the Dark Side with their Devil Song). The violence is toned down and tame compared to many games, but it's very clear that you're killing people.

I suspect the real reason the game failed is because it sucks. There's a bajillion RTS games on the market, and while it's probably not the worst, LB isn't even in the top half. Mediocre graphics, a mildly annoying control scheme...even if you set aside the silliness of the whole thing, it's just not much fun to play.

I wonder if it would have sold better if they included more graphic violence and gore. Based on the imagery I've heard in sermons, their target demographic seems to enjoy that sort of thing.

Could “Expelled” be to faith-based movies what the Edsel was to cars?

Anti-semitism has been a part of widely-disseminated Christian doctrine for most of Christianity’s history.

Not really, the Edsel was actually quite a good car.

— David B.

heddle: Nigel D.

Anti-semitism has been a part of widely-disseminated Christian doctrine for most of Christianity’s history.

Is the following really hard to grasp? Some bozo using claiming evolution to justify school shooting does not mean evolution leads to school shootings. Some bozo claiming scientific legitimacy for the superiority of the Aryan race does not mean evolution leads to racism or Nazism. And some other bozo claiming the bible justifies his anti-Semitism does not mean the bible leads to anti-Semitism. Exactly what part of the concept “co-opt” appears to be, for you, Jason Failes, and Moses, more difficult than quantum field theory?

Dehumanization is often a necessary precursor to any sort of bigotry/prejudist/hatred/violence. It consists of rhetorical hate speech meant to demonize/belittle the target to emphasize their inferiority or to remove them from their human identity. The result of which is the furthering of oppression against said individual because the act itself has then become 'justified' through their inferiority or negative 'perception'.

What we have is a religious text thats makes prescribed claims about another religious group often in dismissive and belittling tones. Many of which have been consistantly interpreted into anti-semitic speech and anti-semitic actions for nearly one thousand eight hundred years of history in Europe. It is necessarily divisive because the jews did not 'convert' to the truth, so in effect they must be denied having any semblence of interaction with those that do hold the truth. We see this type of ideology even when we examine christian philosophers such as Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther. All of which reject the jews as 'denying the truth' and often allow violence against them because of it. Luther for example wrote entire volumes upon,'The Jews and Their Lies' Which some more uncompassionate christian apologetics in the modern age have attempted to justify Luther by saying,"Well Luther was trying to convert the jews and when he realized he couldn't he was simply expressing his anger." The arrogance of which is beyond my own words to describe.

It makes you wonder, what part of Darwinian evolution was being used in the past one thousand eight hundred years of christian based anti-semitism? What part of darwinian evolution was being used when both Germany and Spain attempted to force jews to wear symbols upon their clothing so that they might be distinguishable from their non-jewish neighbors. Wait a minute! Jews had to wear distinguishing icons so that they could be recognized because they couldn't all be identified racially? The only dividing factor was their religious belief and race had very little impact on the anti-semitism embraced through out history in europe? Where exactly is the darwinian evolution in a genocidal event where individuals both jews and non-jews, that were often racially indistinguishable from their neighbors and selected for political as well as religious reasons?

My rant is over.

Jason: There is, in fact, absolutely no call to “convert or kill” unbelievers in the game.

wikipedia Martin Luther: According to Michael, Luther's work acquired the status of Scripture within Germany, and he became the most widely read author of his generation, in part because of the coarse and passionate nature of the writing.[101] The prevailing view[103] among historians is that his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[104] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the National Socialist's attacks on Jews.[105] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[106] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[107] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[92] On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory."

I just left the following message for the Left Behind Games folks:

"I hate when people like you pretend to be Christians, but instead lie so blatantly. If you are charging me $4.99 for a download that is not free, that is $4.99. At least you are not trying to cheat the government by calling it handling, the invoice calls it price because legally it is the price. I have been told that every time someone lies, baby Jesus cries. Why do you work to make Jesus sad?"

I doubt it will help, but it sure brought me a smile.

Matt Silb: I just left the following message for the Left Behind Games folks: "I hate when people like you pretend to be Christians, but instead lie so blatantly. If you are charging me $4.99 for a download that is not free, that is $4.99. At least you are not trying to cheat the government by calling it handling, the invoice calls it price because legally it is the price. I have been told that every time someone lies, baby Jesus cries. Why do you work to make Jesus sad?" I doubt it will help, but it sure brought me a smile.

raven:

Jason: There is, in fact, absolutely no call to “convert or kill” unbelievers in the game.

Might be why it failed. What is the point of belonging to a Death Cult if the people around you aren't dying? In the next game, "Leaving the 21st Century and the USA behind", Xian Death Cult warriors will massacre scientists and science supporters on a mass scale. The sequel game will be callled, "Theocracy, Witch Hunt!!!" The final game will be "Subsistence Agriculture, Hunting and Gathering, and Evicting Bears from your Cave." It will be played in real life and real time 24/7; computers, running water, and electricity having become collateral damage.

Jason stated thus :

"Left Behind Games isn’t charging $4.99 for the download. The company that is hosting the download is. It’s no different than paying the post office or UPS for shipping and handling for a free item."

Does that mean that Rapidshare and Megaupload do not exist ? To my knowledge, these sites host large files for free and without charging for download. The only downside is that if a file doesn't get downloaded by anybody for months, that file gets deleted from their server.

Thinking again, maybe the leftbehind folk are not so stupid after all :-)

Jason: Are you naturally stupid or is it something you have to work at?

DBC: Jason's full of it. Of course the LB game has killing. There's no blood- and the core of the gameplay is "saving" (recruiting) neutrals and levelling your own forces up- but you're fighting against whatever they call the U.N. Global Peacekeepers, or something. And also rock stars (rock stars are Satan's minions, and can sway units over to the Dark Side with their Devil Song). The violence is toned down and tame compared to many games, but it's very clear that you're killing people.

raven: 1. What is the name of your sect. A general description will do, we don't want to know who you are or where you live.

2. Most cultists divide Xians into Real Xians and Fake Xians with of course, the Real Xians being members of their group. And the vast majority of Catholics, mainline protestants etc.. being Fake Xians. In your opinion, what percentage of Xians are Real Xians?

3. Do you believe the Rapture is imminent and god will show up, destroy the earth and kill 6.7 billion people?

For extra credit, is murdering 6.7 billion peope a Good Thing?

How old is the earth?

Cowardly Disembodied voice: Does that mean that Rapidshare and Megaupload do not exist ? To my knowledge, these sites host large files for free and without charging for download. The only downside is that if a file doesn't get downloaded by anybody for months, that file gets deleted from their server.

jeh: So Jason, I take it that the players do not have armaments of any kind, but if they do, they don't use them. Never. Absolutely no killing--ever.

Kind of goes against the Left Behind Tribulation Force philosophy doesn't it? That you should deal with the antichrist and his minions through non-violent resistance.

Anything God does is, by definition, “lawful” and God does not do things out of malice.

How old is the earth? I don’t know and I don’t care. If it’s thousands of years old or billions of years old, so what? What does that have to do with me? Does the age of the earth have some important meaning to my life where I must accept a certain age?

And we also care that a game was published that includes the same hateful rhetoric used to identify the 'outgroup'. The most absurd thing about "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" is that it is literally the interpretation of a specific political/religious view that includes hateful rhetoric used to identify who the 'enemy' is by naming "the UN" "liberals" "democrats" "rock stars" all along typical right wing conservative lines.

Its not so much that the game allows you to commit violence against others, but is a game that embraces a pre-existing ideology of divisionary hate in the expression of a specific evangelical christian denomination. Something that is also reflected in those horrible left behind books.

And some other bozo claiming the bible justifies his anti-Semitism does not mean the bible leads to anti-Semitism.

Anything God does is, by definition, “lawful” and God does not do things out of malice.

I’m not sure where you got that idea from. It’s not in the game, the movies or the books. The Tribulation Force is not some armed militia that goes out and kills non-Christians.

I don't intend to read or re-read all the books, but here's a synopsis that includes some of what I remember--based on a summary at http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1400

"They express their desire to hurt people—just the evil ones, of course (3:91). They kill enemies with their bare fists. Buck “drove his fist square into the young guard’s nose with all he could muster. He felt the crush of cartilage, the cracking of teeth, and the ripping of flesh. The back of [the guard’s] head hit the floor first” (4:347). Christians shoot at non-Christians, saying, “I’ll kill you, you ___” (4:351). They seethe with anger (6:150, 282, 317, 387) and rage (4:400; 7:50), with the desire to kill (4:400) and to seek revenge (6:395; 7:50). There is even a subtle spiritual contest among the Tribulation Force about who seethes with anger more: Chloe or Rayford or Hattie (5:256; cf. also 10:7), as if seething with anger were the most reliable fruit of the Spirit in the Tribulation. They spew venom (5:300). Rayford hopes God lets him pull the trigger and murder Carpathia (4:416), as does Mac (12:51). Rayford wants to be “God’s hit man” (5:100)."

Are the points made in this summary incorrect? You are right on one point, most of the killing is done by God or his supernatural representatives. If the game were based on divine violence, then the game would definitely have to be rated as M (Mature). The actions of Jesus in the Glorious Appearing are definitely in the realm of the mayhem in the most violent video games. Of course all of the recipients of this violence have it coming, right?

My problem with the Left Behind franchise, as well as Expelled, is that it feeds the persecution complex of evangelicals. Christians have nearly unlimited freedom to promote their beliefs in the America up to the point of forcing their beliefs on others (Fred Phelps and Co, come to mind as representing how far you can actually go in expressing your beliefs, no matter how repellent they may be). Yet evangelicals speak of this freedom as if it were nonexistent, which is an insult to those who have sacrificed their lives to provide that freedom, as well as those people in the world that are actually persecuted and martyred for their religious or political beliefs.

Demonizing your opponents makes it easier to oppress, torture or kill them. A toxic stew of vitriol from ministers, radio talk show hosts, and Christian leaders feeds the resentment and anger of a subset of evangelicals that are receptive to their message. I know this first hand, from members of my own family. The amount of hatred that can be generated against the usual suspects (elitists, liberals, "Darwinists," scientists, atheists, gays, feminists, Democrats, etc.) should not be underestimated. And sooner or later it is going to trigger some unbalanced individual to act violently on these feelings. Dawkins got a little taste of this at the Expelled showing, and their other reports on the web that describe the animosity directed at individuals who criticize the premises of the movie.

Jason: ...God does not do things out of malice.

That brings to mind an idea for an RTS game.

People of God: Canaanite Genocide!

We could make an RTS game of hebrew ( semitic tribes ) committing genocide against their canaanite neighbors as vividly described throughout the old testament. Its ok to kill their women and children, because the canaanites are evil!

They are evil because they sacrifice their children. ( I'm serious, some christian apologetics have submitted this reasoning ) Justifiying the genocidal killing of children, by denoting the society the children from are evil because they kill their own children.

Christianity did not "cause" Nazism, but it made it possible, particularly its virulent antisemitism. Hitler didn't create that. He just used what those good Germans had been in church for centuries.

Has anybody checked "Jason's" ISP? His posts are quite similar in style and content to "Jacob's" many incarnations. Or maybe "Jacob" learned from his spankings and is using a different computer for his dribblings. <*shrugs*>

And in fact we know that all these causations exists, for example when Luther was constructing a religious anti-semitic message. You would have to show that everyone including Luther himself didn’t use that support, and proceed for many similar examples.

Wolfhound: Has anybody checked "Jason's" ISP? His posts are quite similar in style and content to "Jacob's" many incarnations. Or maybe "Jacob" learned from his spankings and is using a different computer for his dribblings. <*shrugs*>

What about those Christians who claim that the Jews murdered Christ?

You haven’t answered my question, so it’s actually not your turn. Give it a go, then I’ll ponder your questions.

— chunkdz

What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism (as opposed to co-opted Christianity—that is, people making a Christian-sounding argument to rationalize their own hatred) is that the bible endorses anti-Semitism. Luther did not do that. He simply hated Jews.

Bill Gascoyne,

Fair enough. How about if it is in the bible, or taught, Ex Cathedra, by the Catholic Church? Are you aware of any infallible Catholic dogma that is anti-Semitic? I'm not.

heddle: Bill Gascoyne, Fair enough. How about if it is in the bible, or taught, Ex Cathedra, by the Catholic Church? Are you aware of any infallible Catholic dogma that is anti-Semitic? I'm not.

What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism (as opposed to co-opted Christianity—that is, people making a Christian-sounding argument to rationalize their own hatred) is that the bible endorses anti-Semitism.

Fair enough. How about if it is in the bible, or taught, Ex Cathedra, by the Catholic Church?

What about de Torquemada? Martin Luther? Thomsa Aquinas? Every Pope? These people are considered authorities on Christianity precisely because they prescribed how Christians should act.

This article misses one crucial point about Left Behind: The Video Game... that the gameplay apparently SUCKED.

Now, I'm not saying that Expelled! couldn't suck as a movie, but gameplay sucking is a FAR far more devastating overall flaw in a product than merely being a pack of bullshit and stock footage.

No, we do not know that and no, you don’t have to show that. What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism (as opposed to co-opted Christianity—that is, people making a Christian-sounding argument to rationalize their own hatred) is that the bible endorses anti-Semitism. Luther did not do that. He simply hated Jews.

"What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism (as opposed to co-opted Christianity—that is, people making a Christian-sounding argument to rationalize their own hatred) is that the bible endorses anti-Semitism."

Wrong again, Heddle. Complete nonsense.

All that is required is to show that vast numbers Christians relying on their own fallible and personal interpreations of the Bible and other Patristic sources developed a widespread streak of antisemitism.

You do know what "Patristic" means, right?

See my link to the Doctor of the Church St. John Chrystomon, above, for a Patristic antisemitic rant.

As to Catholic examples they don't need to be ex cathdra or infallible, very little in the Catholci Church is infallible or ex cathedra, but that doens't mean there haven't been offical antisemtici actions taken by vast numbers of Catholics acting on religious impulse.

How about, just for the tip of the iceberg, St Simon of Trent?

Here's a current antisemitic Catholic version of the story:

http://www.stsimonoftrent.com/

Her's a more unbiased account:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Trent

It only took from 1475 to 1965 for the Catholic Church to suppress the cult and declare the blood libel incident a fraud. This is not an isolated case. Look Up Little Willam of Norwich and St. Hugh of Lincoln. It seems that Chrstians of the middle ages liked to blame all their missing children on cannibalistic Jews under the Blood Libel.

And then this ignorance:

"Are you aware of any infallible Catholic dogma that is anti-Semitic? I’m not."

How about a Papal Bull:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/episode5/documents/documents_3.html

The Papal Bull only requres Jews to live in a separate ghetto and wear a yellow star.

and papal order to burn the Talmud:

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000369.html

Not infallible in hindsight, concededly...but at the time the Pope's voice was law. He was not a person to be trifled with.

Did you really think Hitler came up with this stuff on his own?

Sadly Christan based antisemitism through the ages is too well documented to be denied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe_(Middle_Ages)

Even the current Pope recognizes what you don't:

http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/00articles/meaculpa.htm

Franky, those who holds differently, and, by this I mean "Expelled," approach the scholarly level of Holocaust denial. They are shifting blame and minimizing one of the major causes of the Holocaust.

Are you joining them?

PvM:

No, we do not know that and no, you don’t have to show that. What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism (as opposed to co-opted Christianity—that is, people making a Christian-sounding argument to rationalize their own hatred) is that the bible endorses anti-Semitism. Luther did not do that. He simply hated Jews.

Now that is an overly simplistic argument.

Why did it tank? Simple: no explicit and graphic torture scenes. That is why Passion of the Christ made bank, and Expelled tanked. The folks who made Expelled simply failed to understand what actually motivates their target market.

George Smiley: Why did it tank? Simple: no explicit and graphic torture scenes. That is why Passion of the Christ made bank, and Expelled tanked. The folks who made Expelled simply failed to understand what actually motivates their target market.

As an antidote to the shlock flick Expelled, I recommend the documentary "Constantine's Sword," in which the well-known author, James Carroll,(no relation) traces the antisemitism of the Catholic church from the present back to th 4th century. I saw a preview of this doc this evening, and it will formally open in April, I think the same day that Ex opens. Good production values, a consistent story,. The director of the documentary was on hand for a q&A session afterward. And it gives a very different picture than Expelled. Basically for those who are not morons. I've left a similar statement on Dispatches ....

Now that is an overly simplistic argument.

As to Catholic examples they don’t need to be ex cathdra or infallible, very little in the Catholci Church is infallible or ex cathedra, but that doens’t mean there haven’t been offical antisemtici actions taken by vast numbers of Catholics acting on religious impulse.

Did you really think Hitler came up with this stuff on his own

Even the current Pope recognizes what you don’t:

Are you joining them?

Hitler was a nutcase with obsessions and a thirst for power. It is obvious that he (and his followers) used whatever was around opportunistically to manipulate people. It's way too simplistic to try to say that "Hitler was an X!" for just about any X that includes a substantial proportion of non-nutcase humans and pretend that we have determined the basis of what drove the Nazis to do what they did. Did evolutionary ideas get used in Nazi propaganda? Sure. So did lots of ideas from Christianity. The mere presence of some idea in Nazi propaganda only shows directly that the propagandist thought that a chunk of his target audience would respond well to it. The notion that one can come up with simple, exclusive causes for Nazis and Hitler doing the things they did is ludicrous. Many of the folks high in the Nazi hierarchy were people without much in the way of formal education and who never showed much tendency to apply a principled view of things to their actions, even misunderstood principles. Principled application of some one viewpoint would imply a consistency in publicly-stated justifications that was notable by its absence in Nazi propaganda output.

If whatever a Christian says, even if he is a leader, is an accurate refelection of Christianity, even if it is not in the bible or is not Catholic dogma, then “uncle,” you win.

So if a Christian makes anti-Semitic statements, then ipso facto Christianity is anti-Semitic. Like I said, a debate stopper.

Heddle.

" you will see that I stated that it quite plainly that it is stupid to blame Nazism on evolution."

No, It's not stupid, it's a dishonest denial of a long history of Christian religously based anti-semitism.

Nevertheless, I treat your last comment as conceding that point entirely.

Now, please express the same sentiments to the folks behind Expelled, where they are properly addressed.

you will see that I stated that it quite plainly that it is stupid to blame Nazism on evolution.

Nevertheless, I treat your last comment as conceding that point entirely.

Now, please express the same sentiments to the folks behind Expelled, where they are properly addressed.

Why isn’t his point properly addressed here? He might be wrong, but he is disagreeing with people on this thread, and not the movie (thought he might disagree with the movie as well).

The other stupid is blaming it on Christianity. If you blame it on Christianity, you are as dumb as Ben Stein.

You haven’t explained why. Legions of influential Christian thinkers have espoused anti-semitism. Why are these influential Christians not good proxies for Christianity?

What you have to show in order to demonstrate that Christianity caused Nazism

So if a Christian makes anti-Semitic statements, then ipso facto Christianity is anti-Semitic.

To repeat this allegation against the Bible, without also stating that the Romans were also implicated in the NT, along with everyone else who's ever lived

Stanton: What about those Christians who claim that the Jews murdered Christ?

jeh: I’m not sure where you got that idea from. It’s not in the game, the movies or the books. The Tribulation Force is not some armed militia that goes out and kills non-Christians. I don't intend to read or re-read all the books, but here's a synopsis that includes some of what I remember--based on a summary at http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1400 "They express their desire to hurt people—just the evil ones, of course (3:91). They kill enemies with their bare fists. Buck “drove his fist square into the young guard’s nose with all he could muster. He felt the crush of cartilage, the cracking of teeth, and the ripping of flesh. The back of [the guard’s] head hit the floor first” (4:347). Christians shoot at non-Christians, saying, “I’ll kill you, you ___” (4:351). They seethe with anger (6:150, 282, 317, 387) and rage (4:400; 7:50), with the desire to kill (4:400) and to seek revenge (6:395; 7:50). There is even a subtle spiritual contest among the Tribulation Force about who seethes with anger more: Chloe or Rayford or Hattie (5:256; cf. also 10:7), as if seething with anger were the most reliable fruit of the Spirit in the Tribulation. They spew venom (5:300). Rayford hopes God lets him pull the trigger and murder Carpathia (4:416), as does Mac (12:51). Rayford wants to be “God’s hit man” (5:100)."

raven: Maybe god does or does not. People acting in his name sure act out of malice, lie, and kill on a routine basis.

The subject of this blog and this thread. Ben Stein, Mathis, Miller, Ruloff and company are just the latest of countless.

Fair enough. We don't care what anyone believes.

If you want to hide in the basement with a bible and a box of candles waiting for the end, it is a free country.

What we object to is people trying to sneak their cult religious viewpoints into our kid's science classes.

And destroying the basis of our civilization.

The age of the earth only matters if you have any curiosity about the world around you and any interest in understanding it and reality.

You can flip burgers forever without knowing what it is or caring a bit. But somebody has to do science or we would still be back in the Dark Age.

"Stanton, in my experience in some 30 years of Christianity, I have run into some who claim the above. Actually, I should clarify, that I have heard of some who claim the above, mostly on the internet, and always from people saying that there are Christians who claim this. In otherwords, I’ve never heard it directly. Don’t get me wrong. I believe such people exist; I’ve just never run into any of them directly, even online.

In my experience, every Christian I’ve talked with believes that the Jew Jesus was murdered by a combination of Jews and Romans."

I recommend you check the links I posted above, especially:

http://www.stsimonoftrent.com/

Next, you can google "deicide" "Christ Killer"

for a wealth of information contrary to your observation. (And I'm pleased to hear about your observation! I thas not been that way for much of history.)

For a Biblical reference you can go to Mathew 27:20-26

20 The chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas but to destroy Jesus.
21 The governor said to them in reply, "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" They answered, "Barabbas!"
22 Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus called Messiah?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!"
23 But he said, "Why? What evil has he done?" They only shouted the louder, "Let him be crucified!"
24 When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves."
25 And the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children."

Thus, the deicide/Christ Killer charge.

Now the exegeis of that passage is disputed. Certainly modern scholars tend towards the version that the first century Jews present at this scene were serving as the proxies for the entire human race. Other interpretations have be used over the centuries to support the Christ killer charge and to support widespread antisemitism. Different Christian congregations have varying degrees of success in addressing and eliminating antisemitism but it still rears its ugly head in the Christian context and with scriptural support. (see my link for the scriptural support.)

All this is complicated by the fact that all Christian denominations until very recently believed that moral, upright , observant Jews were condemned to hell. Luther's Sola Fidei, Calvin's doctrine of the elect/predestination and Catholic doctrine "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" (Outside the Church there is no salvation) all lead to the same result: Moral, upright and observant Jews are damned for eternity.

The modern exegeis supports Heddle's point. Heddle is making the point that Christianity is not fundamentally antisemitic. That's true but nobody on this thread is arguing that it is. It's a trivial point. What is being suggested here is that Christian anti-semitism has a long and shameful history and provided far more support for the Holocaust than evolutionary theory.

That, however, is not Expelled's claim. Expelled claims evolution was the most direct link. That is a form of Holocaust denial.

Heddle's second poitnis logically incoorect. Blaming evolution for having a major role in evolution is incorrect. It is not an equal statement to place a fair amount of blame for the Holocaust on 2000 years of religious based anti-semitism. Notice carefully the difference between "religious based anti-semitism" and "Christianity." Two different concepts.

Joe, I appreciae your links, but again, it would only support what I said. My personal experience in meeting 100s (1000s?) of Christians has never turned up even a hint of anti-Semitism, or a belief that "the Jews" were responsible for Jesus' death. As I said, I'm sure those kind of people exist, but the only time I've run into them is their detractors on the internet describing them or referring to them, as you just did.

Your reference to Matthew must be taken in context, for sound exegesis, again. It's written by a Jew (that some say it wasn't is immaterial at the moment, as more to the point it was long believed to be so), it is about the killing of a Jew, and it was well known at the time without any doubt that Pilate was a Roman. No theologians ever took him at his word and felt he was excused- from the very beginning till now the passage has been read as weasly words and an attempt to get out of his real responsibility. Pilate was a Troll, and has always been seen that way. And don't forget that Christians, at the heart of Christianity, also thought that Jesus' death was a good thing.

It is not just modern scholars who thought the Jews were standing as proxies- it's alsot he first scholars. Paul was a Jew, a leading scholar, as were many of the other NT writers- most of them. And the universal interpretation of Crucifixion Gate was that all humans were responsible, and not just "the Jews". Later, as mutual acrimony arose between the main body of the Jews and that tiny Jewish sect of Christianity, there started to be mutual recriminations, eventually resulting in the anti-Semitism of the Early Church Fathers. But this is a later development.

You say that all Christian denominations until recently have believed that Jews are going to hell. I'm not sure what you mean by your terms. Recent must be more recent than the first few centuries, where that wasn't believed. But my denomination, the Quakers, goes back to 1650, and has never believed that. And that doesn't seem all that recent to me. Most Christians, until the Enlightenment, have believed that non-Christians are going to hell- and even today most Christians believe this- but it has never had anything to do with how morally upright you are. While that is important, the central doctrine of Christianity is not that you are morally upright and so deserving of Heaven, but rather that you are needy and willing to hope in Christ, and so by his grace given access to Paradise. So how morally upright a Jew is is immaterial and a red herring, as is whether or not they go to Heaven in a particular Christian dogma, as it gets into the question of Universal Salvation, beyond the issue here before us of Christian anti-Semitism, and more specifically, the modern universality of the claim that Jews alone are responsible for Christ's death, or the idea that such an idea appears in the Christian scriptures.

Lastly, I would beg to differ with you that no one on this thread is claiming that Christianity is fundamentally anti-Semitic. I recognize that you are not, but a good number of posts here are suggesting exactly that.

Chad: And we also care that a game was published that includes the same hateful rhetoric used to identify the 'outgroup'.

The most absurd thing about "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" is that it is literally the interpretation of a specific political/religious view that includes hateful rhetoric used to identify who the 'enemy' is by naming "the UN" "liberals" "democrats" "rock stars" all along typical right wing conservative lines.

Its not so much that the game allows you to commit violence against others, but is a game that embraces a pre-existing ideology of divisionary hate in the expression of a specific evangelical christian denomination. Something that is also reflected in those horrible left behind books.

Paul Burnett: Global genocide of all humans except for one family on a boat is not malice? Destruction of whole cities by a rain of fire from the sky is not malice? Causing the walls of a city to fall down, allowing the Hebrew army to kill the inhabitants, is not malice? Sending bears to devour children who mocked a prophet is not malice? There's more than enough malice in the Old Testament to disgust anybody.

Wolfhound: Has anybody checked "Jason's" ISP? His posts are quite similar in style and content to "Jacob's" many incarnations. Or maybe "Jacob" learned from his spankings and is using a different computer for his dribblings.

Stanton: What about those Christians who claim that the Jews murdered Christ?

Bad: This article misses one crucial point about Left Behind: The Video Game... that the gameplay apparently SUCKED.

Jason:

Stanton: What about those Christians who claim that the Jews murdered Christ?

They're right, but not in the way they think and only partially so. Christ was murdered by the Jews, the Gentiles, the Romans, the Greeks, and everyone else. Yes, even his own disciples.

I don’t have all the books on hand currently, but from the ones I’ve checked from that list, I’ve found the citations to be laughably out of context.

Yeah those examples came from the web site of a bunch of pacifist Mennonites and you know we can't trust those bleeding heart liberal types to tell the truth, right?

My first exposure to the Left Behind series was seeing one of the graphic novels where some Palestinian or Arab types get incinerated by the fire from the Two Witnesses. But once again, I'm sure they had it coming. And you can argue that strictly speaking, it was not Christians who did the killing, but supernatural hit men. Nevertheless violence is part and parcel of the triumphalism that LaHaye & Jensen lovingly embrace in their series.

And do you get rewarded for self-sacrifice or martyrdom in the Eternal Forces game? That should be the easy way to win the game.

Fair enough. We don’t care what anyone believes. Then why did you ask. Obviously you DO care. I’m sure you wanted to peg me as some sort of nutty, backwoods “fundie” Christian who’s praying and waiting for the Rapture so that the evil, nasty atheists and gays will go to Hell. In fact, your very next sentence proves it.

If you want to hide in the basement with a bible and a box of candles waiting for the end, it is a free country. Now where the hell did that come from? (Ooo! I said “hell.” Get the pitchforks! Get the iodine!) Did I give any indication that I would do such a thing? The Bible teaches Christians to watch, not obsess.

What we object to is people trying to sneak their cult religious viewpoints into our kid’s science classes. Yeah, you’re right. Science classes should only be about dismantling religious viewpoints.

For all 5 people still on this thread. I'm now 0/3 on my questions, what sect, %Fake Xians, and Rapture date.

What is interesting and I'm seeing this on other threads, the fundies are starting to deny that they are fundies. A lot. There is a backlash against the violence, lies, and other damage they have inflicted on the USA. They are starting to notice it.

Stanton: How are the people alive today, including you and I, personally responsible for the murder of Christ?

Did we all go back in a time machine?

That, and you miss my point entirely in that some Christians use the excuse that the Jews were personally involved and personally responsible for the murder of Christ, hence the insulting epitaph of "Christ Killer," as an excuse to commit violence against Jewish people and or curtail their liberties.

jeh: Yeah those examples came from the web site of a bunch of pacifist Mennonites and you know we can't trust those bleeding heart liberal types to tell the truth, right?

My first exposure to the Left Behind series was seeing one of the graphic novels where some Palestinian or Arab types get incinerated by the fire from the Two Witnesses. But once again, I'm sure they had it coming.

And you can argue that strictly speaking, it was not Christians who did the killing, but supernatural hit men.

Nevertheless violence is part and parcel of the triumphalism that LaHaye & Jensen lovingly embrace in their series.

And do you get rewarded for self-sacrifice or martyrdom in the Eternal Forces game? That should be the easy way to win the game.

Dave? The thread's gone askew on 'treadle.

Jason:

Stanton: How are the people alive today, including you and I, personally responsible for the murder of Christ?

We have all sinned.

You know, this isn't going to make a lick of sense to or mean anything to you, but one of the most moving, memorable things we did in our church for Good Friday was to pound old-style nails into a hand-fashioned cross our pastor made. People were in tears doing it. I'll never forget my elderly mother who, despite being not entirely frail, just having the strength drained from her she was so overcome with emotion. I had to help finish hammering her nail into the cross.

Did we all go back in a time machine?

Don't be obtuse. It's unbecoming.

That, and you miss my point entirely in that some Christians use the excuse that the Jews were personally involved and personally responsible for the murder of Christ, hence the insulting epitaph of "Christ Killer," as an excuse to commit violence against Jewish people and or curtail their liberties.

Some Christians do that, yes, and they are wrong to do so, but they are not the majority of Christians. Far from it, in fact.

raven: For information and idle amusement.

You are most likely a fundie with negligible education who lives in the boondocks somewhere and can't even imagine that other parts of the USA are sadly (for you) fundie deficient. You are starting to get evasive and trying to deflect the postings and change the subjects. This is a sign of a fundie in a box.

You are a Rapturer!

Read Genesis 8. God promised himself after destroying the earth the first time that he would never do it again.

The Rapture isn't scripturally well supported and most Xian sects don't buy it.

You are a fundie. Channeling straight fundie Xian lies and nonsense.

And denying it.

Science isn't a religion and is neutral on religion.

And 40% of all biologists describe themselves as religious. Science contradicts all of dozens of creation myths, not just the fundie mythology. Reality is what it is, deal with it.

The creos don't want to teach ID. They want to destroy the US, set up a theocracy, and head on back to the Dark Ages. ID is just a start and a Wedge. Read the DI Wedge document on wikipedia. That is what they say in black and white. "By their words, ye shall know them." Like most fundies, you wave the bible around and never, ever read or understand it.

Sorry Jason, I don't believe much of what you posted anymore

and you are more trolling than being interesting and amusing. Last word is yours, I'm busy.

PS BTW, your curiosity about the real world is clearly nonexistent

and you don't even have the slightest idea what science is much less what it says.

You could read wikipedia

or simple library books and know a lot more.

But you will stay Voluntarily Ignorant forever.

Too bad, most scientists got into it because it was fascinating, fun, and a way to make a difference. No one has ever burst into flames from knowing the earth is 4.5 billion years old and how that was determined.

raven: For all 5 people still on this thread. I'm now 0/3 on my questions, what sect, %Fake Xians, and Rapture date.

What is interesting and I'm seeing this on other threads, the fundies are starting to deny that they are fundies.

A lot. There is a backlash against the violence, lies, and other damage they have inflicted on the USA. They are starting to notice it.

Yes, because that’s exactly what my point was.

So right, that stuff Jesus said about the peacemakers being blessed--ah, it was all a big joke. Same with the cheek turning business.

I don’t have all the books on hand currently, but from the ones I’ve checked from that list, I’ve found the citations to be laughably out of context.

Well I went to the bookstore to check these out too, and I think they reflect the context pretty well. It's all about revenge. "Killed or be killed," as one of the characters says. And I guess this does reflect what Jesus said, something like "Take up that sword, dude, or you will die by it!"

Oh yes, they hold the most hate for the Big Kahuna (the Antichrist), but that doesn't mean they give a pass to the little fish (li'l antichrists).

Considering they were trying to kill the Witnesses, yeah, I’d say they had it coming.

It's so unfortunate they had to be Arabs. How incredibly unexpected that Arabs would be the villains in this psychodrama.

You know, just let me know if you’re going to continue to just make crap up out of thin air, m’kay?

Bo'K. But I'd first have to start.

re: Nevertheless violence is part and parcel of the triumphalism that LaHaye & Jensen lovingly embrace in their series.

And while you are it, explain to us how much you relish a book series that takes pleasure in the death of billions. And how you'll be in heaven cheering it on, "Go Team Jesus!"

Science isn’t a religion and is neutral on religion.

Yes, it is.

jeh: And I guess this does reflect what Jesus said, something like "Take up that sword, dude, or you will die by it!"

Stanton:

Science isn’t a religion and is neutral on religion.

Yes, it is.

Do you care to explain why there are no holy texts, holy relics, prophets, designated priesthood, rituals, or focuses of prayer in Science, even though it is a religion according to you?

Was this irony? Jesus never said anything remotely like that; in fact, he said pretty much the opposite.

You betcha. Not that some Christians from Constantine onward would beg to differ with Jesus.

fnxtr: Dave? The thread's gone askew on 'treadle.

Jason: ...Hrm... When was the last time some "fundie" shot up a campus somewhere?

Jeanne Assam took aim and fired. The woman that stopped the Colorado shootings is a hero according to New Life's Senior Pastor Brady Boyd. ...The 42-year old Church security guard poke Monday about killing Matthew Murray on Sunday as he went on a killing spree at the Colorado Springs church. The gunman had already killed four and wounded five others in two separate shootings when she took him out.

A Critical Evaluation of Matthew Murray’s Shooting Spree. ... So here is Matthew Murray. By all accounts he grew up in a Christian home…an almost suffocating Christian home. He was denied a mainstream life and forced into an ultra-Pentecostal homeschooling program – a program so strict that it is rejected by nearly all homeschooling experts. In short, his parents denied him a normal, happy childhood. Yet Murray tries to embrace this radical Christian lifestyle and tries to join up with Youth With A Mission (YWAM). He’s rejected by the group for not being radical enough (and listening to normal mainstream music). The group notices his anti-social behavior (the result of neglect in his homelife and the suffocating strict fundamentalist values his parents placed on him). Did he have behavior problems? I don’t know. I never met him. However, during my brief period of time in the clutches of this exact radical Christian fundamentalist organization that he was involved with and that he ultimately targeted, I met many like him. Young men and woman, wanting to be good Christians, but who were rejected for not being radical enough. Rejected for not wanting to speak in tongues. Rejected for not giving enough money to their mega churches like Faith Bible Chapel or New Life Christian Church. Rejected for not trying to recruit others. Rejected for not being "devout enough."

Jason: …Hrm… When was the last time some “fundie” shot up a campus somewhere?

fnxtr: Dave? The thread's gone askew on 'treadle.

Stanton: So, because all people are spiritually flawed, all are responsible for the death of Our Savior?

Even Adam and Eve?

So, please explain why a religion that says all people are horrible murderers who killed their Savior is a religion of love?

How does this justify the claim that all people who have ever lived are responsible for the death of Christ?

"Being obtuse" means refusing to provide logic for one's answers. You have not bothered to provide any logic or reasons for your answers.

So, then, only a minority of Christians participated in the pogroms or listened (and still listen) to Martin Luther's advice in "Of the Jews And Their Lies"?

And if it's clearly wrong to blame the Jews for being personally responsible for the death of Christ, then why do you insist that everyone who ever lived, including the Jews, are personally responsible for the murder of Christ?

jeh: So right, that stuff Jesus said about the peacemakers being blessed--ah, it was all a big joke. Same with the cheek turning business.

Well I went to the bookstore to check these out too, and I think they reflect the context pretty well.

It's all about revenge.

"Killed or be killed," as one of the characters says.

And I guess this does reflect what Jesus said, something like "Take up that sword, dude, or you will die by it!"

Oh yes, they hold the most hate for the Big Kahuna (the Antichrist), but that doesn't mean they give a pass to the little fish (li'l antichrists).

>It's so unfortunate they had to be Arabs. How incredibly unexpected that Arabs would be the villains in this psychodrama.

Bo'K. But I'd first have to start.

And while you are it, explain to us how much you relish a book series that takes pleasure in the death of billions.

And how you'll be in heaven cheering it on, "Go Team Jesus!"

Stanton:

Science isn’t a religion and is neutral on religion.

Yes, it is.

Do you care to explain why there are no holy texts, holy relics, prophets, designated priesthood, rituals, or focuses of prayer in Science, even though it is a religion according to you?

Dave Thomas: How about a church or two? As recently as December 9th, 2007?

raven: Jason, you really are stupid. Cho Seung killed 33 people at Virginia Tech. A fundie

whose parents sought to have him exorcised.

Dave Thomas: Get in your final licks, everyone, as I'll be pulling the plug soon. An interesting discussion, to be sure, but looks like it's run its course. Dave

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Obvious Jason you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, and you set about impugning their character. Take care with that approach. Seems to be the hallmark of those with a persecution complex. That's what these post are about--you see critics of Expelled and Left Behind as some cabal out to persecute Christians. You never imagine that some of the people you attack are Christians and may just hold different views from you. I doubt we will ever agree on this, so this is my last post. I guess these posts will just have to reflect the idea of "Teach the Controversy."

I'll make a guess here that you were in diapers when I started reading apocalyptic literature, religious and non-religious, ancient and modern. It definitely serves a purpose in trying to provide a sense of hope for people in the face of adversities, but I also think it can morph into a more malignant form that merely reflects the political views of ambitious individuals intent on demonizing their enemies. And the use of fictional human or supernatural proxies serve as a way of expressing their desire to inflict revenge on their enemies.

You may be familiar with Slacktivist's blog, and he has taken the time to document this in a much more comprehensive manner than I ever can here. I put the writing of Hal Lindsay, Pat Robertson, John Hagee, etc. into this category--and more recently LaHaye. And LaHaye makes no excuses for his political views which align well with the actions of the characters in his books. Which is all fine and well, until it causes people to act badly. And I repeat I have personal experience of individuals whose attitudes and behavior have become much more belligerent as a result of these influences.

Who said the two men were “Arabs?”

Well that was the direct implication of the graphic novel that I read. Which I was more than a little shocked by. But in retrospect I should not be so shocked given that some Christians would have no trouble if all the Palestinians were completely eliminated from Israel--by one way or another. Bush's futile attempts to promote a separate Palestinian state must really chafe these people's butts, but so far I haven't heard them express the idea that W is the Antichrist ...

Second, I don’t see any pleasure in the deaths of billions anywhere in the books.

Well maybe you don't, but I can assure you that the popularity of this series is in part due to a subset of Christians that enjoy the notion of fantasizing about how divine justice might be meted out in the modern world. Quite obviously these people get pleasure from these books, and I doubt it is due to the quality of the fiction. With the franchise that LaHaye and Jensen have established (books, books for kids, books about books, audio books, calendars, greeting cards, music. DVDs, movies, video games, etc.--but no action figures?), these guys have become rich beyond the dreams of avarice. If only Jesus had serialized Matthew 24 ...

Uh, how do you go from talking about a fictional story to me being in Heaven cheering “Go Team Jesus?

Hardly, I've heard this from many pre-trib dispensationalists. Maybe you're not one of them, but I would guess there are quite a few among the fans of the Left Behind series. I'm guessing that some of these fans fantasize about being part of the Tribulation Force--but alas, they will have been raptured and they will just have to cheer from the heavenly grandstands.

Well it's been nice sparring with you, and you have made some valid points, but I've got to get back to the work of actually doing science.

Jason:

Dave Thomas: How about a church or two? As recently as December 9th, 2007?

Uh, yeah. I have a hard time classifying someone who wrote "All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world" as a Christian.

So here is Matthew Murray. By all accounts he grew up in a Christian home…an almost suffocating Christian home. He was denied a mainstream life and forced into an ultra-Pentecostal homeschooling program – a program so strict that it is rejected by nearly all homeschooling experts. In short, his parents denied him a normal, happy childhood.

Jason:

raven: Jason, you really are stupid. Cho Seung killed 33 people at Virginia Tech. A fundie ... whose parents sought to have him exorcised.

I can't find any verification of that claim anywhere. Not even in articles that seriously consider the question of if Cho was possessed. Where did you get it from?

Isolation Defined Cho's Senior Year Beseeched by Mother, N.Va. Church Offered to Purge 'Demonic Power' By Amy Gardner and David Cho Washington Post Staff Writers Sunday, May 6, 2007; A01 Hyang In Cho was so desperate to find help for her silent, angry son that she sought out some members of One Mind Church in Woodbridge to heal him of what the church's head pastor called "demonic power." But before the church could act late last summer, Seung Hui Cho had to return to Virginia Tech to start his senior year, said the Rev. Dong Cheol Lee, minister of the Presbyterian congregation.