Expelled Exposed: The Untold Sequel - Nancey Murphy

One minor correction -- Crocker's slides weren't made avaiable per se, the images over at TinyFrog are stills from the "Coral Ridge Hour" show you mention. So, ironically, she must have supplied them to the show as examples of how innocuous her materials were and how good a teacher she was.

Obviously she flunked on both counts.

The main links in the post uses nonstandard linking (they don't lead to the full post but the Expelled Expose website), which is a time waster.

Otherwise, this was timely info. Keep at'em!

PZ, 'tis an excellent post. I've quoted it in brief reminders elsewhere, especially over at Amazon.com, merely to demonstrate yet another example of the Disco Tute's Fascist behavior.

Crocker is astonishingly incompetent.

Her slide Presumed Transitional Fossils are just creo lies strung together.

My comments in bold.

Birds in same layer.

This is a lie. What are in the same layer are Pterodactyls and dinosaurs.

Is a bird, not a reptobird.

Another lie. Archaeaopteryx has a toothed jaw, no beak, claws on its wings, and a long dinosaurian tail and skeleton.

only one complete fossil

Lie. There are 10 fossils collected over a 150 year period.

Questioned as a fraud.

Hoyle made some allegations. They were investigated and proved false.

All this is on wikipedia which she apparently never heard of. If she had presented this as a freshman in biology, she would have gotten an F.

Her other slides are equally lame, just channeling AIG class lies and not worth the time to parse.

She got off lucky, she should have been fired but merely failed to get her contract renewed.

Nancey Murphy, a religious scholar at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., said she faced a campaign to get her fired because she expressed the view that intelligent design was not only poor theology, but “so stupid, I don’t want to give them my time.” Murphy, who believes in evolution, said she had to fight to keep her job after one of the founding members of the intelligent design movement, legal theorist Phillip Johnson, called a trustee at the seminary and tried to get her fired.

Posting the list of who is really being beaten up, threatened, fired, attempted to be fired, and killed. Not surprisingly, it is scientists and science supporters by Death Cultists. There is a serious reign of terror by Xian fundie terrorists directed against the reality based academic community, specifically acceptors of evolution. I'm keeping a running informal tally, listed below. They include death threats, firings, attempted firings, assaults, and general persecution directed against at least 10 people. The Expelled Liars have totally ignored the ugly truth of just who is persecuting who. If anyone has more info add it. Also feel free to borrow or steal the list. I thought I'd post all the firings of professors and state officials for teaching or accepting evolution. 2 professors fired, Bitterman (SW CC Iowa) and Bolyanatz (Wheaton) 1 persecuted unmercifully Richard Colling (Olivet) 1 attempted firing Murphy (Fuller Theological by Phillip Johnson IDist) 1 successful death threats, assaults harrasment Gwen Pearson (UT Permian) 1 state official fired Chris Comer (Texas) 1 assault, fired from dept. Chair Paul Mirecki (U. of Kansas) 1 killed, Rudi Boa, Biomedical Student (Scotland) Death Threats Eric Pianka UT Austin and the Texas Academy of Science engineered by a hostile, bizarre IDist named Bill Dembski Death Threats Michael Korn, fugitive from justice, towards the UC Boulder biology department and miscellaneous evolutionary biologists. Up to 10 with little effort. Probably there are more. I turned up a new one with a simple internet search. Haven't even gotten to the secondary science school teachers. And the Liars of Expelled have the nerve to scream persecution. On body counts the creos are way ahead.

wikipedia OPC: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is a small conservative Presbyterian denomination located primarily in the United States. It was founded by conservative members of the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (PCUSA) who strongly objected to the pervasive Modernist theology during the 1930s (see Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy). Led by J. Gresham Machen, who had helped found Westminster Theological Seminary, the church attempted to preserve historic Calvinism within a Presbyterian structure. The name signifies its professed adherence to orthodox Christian teachings; it is not related to any branch of Eastern Christianity.

Evolution Statement In light of recent developments regarding the teaching of the Theory of Evolution in public schools, the Office of Theology and Worship offers the following, the Presbyterian Church U.S. 1969 GA-approved theological statement on the subject. EVOLUTION AND THE BIBLE Primary Reference: GA Minutes 1969: 59-62 Denomination: PCUS Conclusion from the Study Neither Scripture, our Confession of Faith, nor our Catechisms, teach the Creation of man by the direct and immediate acts of God so as to exclude the possibility of evolution as a scientific theory.

raven: The main group, PCUS, with 2.3 million members supported evolution in 1969.

Evolution Statement In light of recent developments regarding the teaching of the Theory of Evolution in public schools, the Office of Theology and Worship offers the following, the Presbyterian Church U.S. 1969 GA-approved theological statement on the subject. EVOLUTION AND THE BIBLE Primary Reference: GA Minutes 1969: 59-62 Denomination: PCUS Conclusion from the Study Neither Scripture, our Confession of Faith, nor our Catechisms, teach the Creation of man by the direct and immediate acts of God so as to exclude the possibility of evolution as a scientific theory.

Murphy, who believes in evolution, said she had to fight to keep her job after one of the founding members of the intelligent design movement, legal theorist Phillip Johnson, called a trustee at the seminary and tried to get her fired.

having seen Johnson pop in here on rare occasions, I wonder if he will deign to defend himself on this?

...and I always thought Phil was such a nice guy.

I’m going to send it to the NSCE website

excellent; I'm quite sure there are many more data points to add, especially if you start considering the number of high school teachers that simply bypassed teaching evolution for fear of angry parents.

In fact, I'd bet that it would be a nice part of the NSCE's efforts on the expelled/exposed website they are putting together.

http://www.expelledexposed.com/

yeah, I did that intentionally.

more links the better.

Wow. This is my former school, and I took a class from Murphy. Having taken a number of classes there, I'm just shocked that any of the administration or facutly would have an issue with evolution. I would never have suspected it. From some students, yes- but not from administration and faculty. The general impression given in classes (though the topic rarely comes up, of course) is quite the opposite.

I don't get why the author of the Washington Post article was using the term "Darwinism". Is he a closet ID supporter?

I found another similar example in Howard Van Till. See: More irony from the ID creationist crowd

I don’t get why the author of the Washington Post article was using the term “Darwinism”. Is he a closet ID supporter?

— Jedidiah Palosaari

...having seen Johnson pop in here on rare occasions, I wonder if he will deign to defend himself on this?

“It’s the Darwinists who hold the power in academia and who threaten the professional status and livelihoods of anyone who disagrees,” Johnson said. “They feel to teach anything but their orthodoxy is an act of professional treason.”

(PZ sez) "Our only problem is that we aren’t martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough. The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many schoolboard members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians."

your quotemining is even more disconnected and disingenuous than usual, FL.

kudos.

I say, screw the polite words and careful rhetoric. It's time for scientists to break out the steel-toed boots and brass knuckles, and get out there and hammer on the lunatics and idiots.

Ouch. One can only imagine all the real victims of steel-toed boots, brass knuckles, and hammers, who read this call for action and had to relive their violent past. In our Global Village, those of us who strive to promote Enlightenment and Civilized values stress Peace, Tolerance, and Fairness. Certainly there is plenty of room at humanity’s table for all sorts of viewpoints. I’m worried that Dr. Myers is unintentionally betraying our efforts to promote these values with his reliance on metaphors of violence. When metaphors of violence are used, they only encourage a like response and the cycle of violent language continues, adding to our Culture of Violence. I would plead with Dr. Myers to consider the more enlightened approach of using non-violent metaphors.

FL:

...having seen Johnson pop in here on rare occasions, I wonder if he will deign to defend himself on this?

Phillip Johnson doesn't need to. PZ Myers has already proved Johnson 100% correct. Take a look:

“It’s the Darwinists who hold the power in academia and who threaten the professional status and livelihoods of anyone who disagrees,” Johnson said. “They feel to teach anything but their orthodoxy is an act of professional treason.”

(PZ sez) "Our only problem is that we aren’t martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough. The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many schoolboard members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians."

Case closed, baby!!! FL

FL ignores conveniently the context in which PZ made these statements. He believes that as scientists we should not hold back when we are confronted with scientific ignorance such as Intelligent Design. This has nothing to do with the livelihoods of scientists, but all with good science.

Mike Gene is a scientist too, don't forget.

You disagree with his statement?

Evolution vs creation row ends in stabbing By Adam Bennett | December 14, 2007 A FRUIT-picking trip to southern New South Wales ended in the death of a Scottish backpacker who became embroiled in a bizarre row about creationism and evolution. English backpacker Alexander Christian York, 33, was today sentenced to a maximum of five years jail for the manslaughter of Scotsman Rudi Boa in January last year. Mr Boa, 28, died on January 27 after being stabbed by York at the Blowering Holiday Park, near Tumut. continues

FL: In fact, let's take things a bit further (Because PZ does.). You ask about Johnson coming here to "defend" himself. But you need to ask about, ahem, somebody else doing so WAY before you even begin to ask about Johnson.

I say, screw the polite words and careful rhetoric. It's time for scientists to break out the steel-toed boots and brass knuckles, and get out there and hammer on the lunatics and idiots.

These are not Johnson's words, if you've ever read any of his books. So whose words are they....? Oh, but you already know, don't you? We all do. ********** So here's a scientist, Mike Gene, who offered the following response to that stuff. You might like it.

Ouch. One can only imagine all the real victims of steel-toed boots, brass knuckles, and hammers, who read this call for action and had to relive their violent past. In our Global Village, those of us who strive to promote Enlightenment and Civilized values stress Peace, Tolerance, and Fairness. Certainly there is plenty of room at humanity’s table for all sorts of viewpoints. I’m worried that Dr. Myers is unintentionally betraying our efforts to promote these values with his reliance on metaphors of violence. When metaphors of violence are used, they only encourage a like response and the cycle of violent language continues, adding to our Culture of Violence. I would plead with Dr. Myers to consider the more enlightened approach of using non-violent metaphors.

Meanwhile, we see the real deal. Johnson's statement is correct.

“Our only problem is that we aren’t martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough. The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many schoolboard members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians.”

I say, screw the polite words and careful rhetoric. It’s time for scientists to break out the steel-toed boots and brass knuckles, and get out there and hammer on the lunatics and idiots.

Mike Gene thinks that ID is not science and that it should not be taught in classrooms. Your point, FL?

"I want to be clear that I personally find Professor Mirecki's e-mail comments repugnant and vile. They do not represent my views nor the views of this university. People of all faiths are valued at KU, and campus ministries are an important part of life at the university. "Dr. Mirecki has made the right decision by his withdrawal from the course. He has a right to free speech but he has to realize the revelation of his past e-mails has tainted the environment for his course. He insulted both our students and the university's public, and he misrepresented beliefs of KU's faculty and staff." ---Dr. Robert Hemenway, Chancellor of the University of Kansas

The incident occurred after the pair and Mr Boa's girlfriend Gillian Brown had spent the night drinking at the Star Hotel in Tumut, and an argument broke out between Mr Boa and York about creationism and evolution. When Mr York and the couple returned to the caravan park separately later that night, a scuffle broke out between the two men. Mr York, who was making dinner at the time, had a knife in his hand and stabbed Mr Boa in the chest during the brief altercation. -- theage.com.au

People have seen this before and might be getting tired of it.

So, rather than a being a pure innocent evolutionist martyr vicitimized by the evil Xian terrorist boogyman, it turns out that evolutionist Mr. Boa did a bunch of drinking with his drinking buddy, and they got into an argument, and the argument got out of hand, which is what sometimes happens when people spend too much time drinking. FL :)

FL takes everything said by PZ Myers literally because that is how he reads the Bible. Both approaches are equally stupid.

wad of id: Mike Gene thinks that ID is not science and that it should not be taught in classrooms. Your point, FL?

FL:

People have seen this before and might be getting tired of it.

FL :)

FL,

Are you seriously arguing that Mr. Boa's drinking is the cause of Mr. York's actions?

FL rants: So, rather than a being a pure innocent evolutionist martyr vicitimized by the evil Xian terrorist boogyman, it turns out that evolutionist Mr. Boa did a bunch of drinking with his drinking buddy, and they got into an argument, and the argument got out of hand, which is what sometimes happens when people spend too much time drinking. FL :)

SWT: FL, Are you seriously arguing that Mr. Boa's drinking is the cause of Mr. York's actions?

FL's true identity?
Luskin?
Johnson?
Demski?
Meyers?
(and the other DI/IDists)
I wager it's one of them.

FL: Mike Gene is a scientist too, don't forget. You disagree with his statement?

“I want to be clear that I personally find Professor Mirecki’s e-mail comments repugnant and vile. They do not represent my views nor the views of this university. People of all faiths are valued at KU, and campus ministries are an important part of life at the university. “Dr. Mirecki has made the right decision by his withdrawal from the course. He has a right to free speech but he has to realize the revelation of his past e-mails has tainted the environment for his course. He insulted both our students and the university’s public, and he misrepresented beliefs of KU’s faculty and staff.”

more quote mining by our local liar for Jesus.

do you even remember what the context was anymore?

moron.

I don't think anyone has pointed out yet that FL's opening comment on this thread is a non-sequitur as regards the original post and Ichthyic's comment that FL was supposedly responding to. PvM's post discussed Murphy's critique of Johnson's book, and the claim that Johnson had subsequently intervened to try to get Murphy fired. Ichthyic speculated on Johnson's possibly turning up here to defend himself. Then FL popped up to throw out an only tangentially related quote from Johnson and proceed to talk as if that was what Ichthyic was saying Johnson has to defend.

In other words, trolling, with the classic elements: Distraction, misdirection, thread derailment, etc.

The quote from PZ which FL presents as proving Johnson's contention is also a bit of a non-sequitur. PZ is clearly talking about public school teachers and elected politicians, not academics in the higher education sense, which I believe is what the Johnson quote is talking about. There's no need to defend evolution among such academics, as creationism is a non-entity among them.

So Johnson is sort of correct in one small part of that quote. Evolutionary scientists do hold the power in the relevant science departments at almost all higher learning institutions, if by that one means they're the ones whose work has been so successful and convincing that scarcely anyone in the field disagrees with it. The only people who disagree are those whose reasoning and work are demonstrably deficient. Thus, shockingly, their careers aren't very successful - not because they challenge some hidebound orthodoxy, but because they refuse to be held to even the minimal standards in their field. In a similar fashion, geocentrists "hold the power" in astronomy departments; germ theorists "hold the power" in medical schools; historians who accept the occurrence of the Holocaust "hold the power" in history departments; etc. So what?

Is it more hypocrisy from these a pseudoChristian to whine about PZ's statement when they endorse the Vise strategy: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.11.Vise_Strategy.pdf

Remember that FL?

I really can't figure out why you guys are arguing with an ignorant hack like "FL".

He or she is clearly a bible thumper who is impervious to rational thought.

I say let him/her go read his/her Wholly Babble and enjoy.

The DI creationist hacks are not interested in arguing science. They are christian fundies who have as their goal the destruction of science education in America.

Ignorance and servility are what they want to promote.

How to identify fundie xian cultists. It is easy. They lie constantly. They are very, very good at hating. Dumb. They and their leaders frequently publish lists of groups they want to kill. They occasionally kill them. Pat Robertson: wikipedia Hugo Chávez“ I don’t know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It’s a whole lot cheaper than starting a war, and I don’t think any oil shipments will stop. We will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. [Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts My note. Terry’s sympathizers have, in fact, murdered more than a few health care workers. “Pastor Jerry Gibson spoke at Doug Whites New Day Covenant Church in Boulder. He said that every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society. bcseweb.org Rushdooney: Our list may not be perfect but it seems to cover those “crimes” against the family that are inferred by Rushdoony’s statement to Moyers. The real frightening side of it is the interpretation of heresy, apostasy and idolatry. Rushdoony’s position seems to suggest that he would have anyone killed who disagreed with his religious opinions. That represents all but a tiny minority of people. Add to that death penalties for what is quite legal, blasphemy, not getting on with parents and working on a Sunday means that it the fantasy ideal world of Rushdoony and his pals, there will be an awful lot of mass murderers and amongst a tiny population. We have done figures for the UK which suggest that around 99% of the population would end up dead and the remainder would have each, on average, killed 500 fellow citizens. Chalcedon foundation bsceweb.org. Stoning disobedient children to death.Contempt for Parental Authority: Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realise that in such a case as ….cut for length Rev. William Einwechter, “Modern Issues in Biblical Perspective: Stoning Disobedient Children”, The Chalcedon Report, January 1999 When The Hate Comes From ‘Churches’ ASHLAND, Ore. - A recent spate of crimes points up a growing connection between hateful actions and organizations calling themselves churches. Two brothers from northern California reportedly linked to such a group were charged this week with the killing of two gay men near Redding. Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams also are suspects in the firebombing of three synagogues in the Sacramento area last month. According to personal acquaintances as well as law enforcement officials, the Williams brothers were involved in Christian Identity, a religion that holds Jews and nonwhites to be subhuman and is closely tied to the Aryan Nations white-supremacist group based in northern Idaho. Meanwhile, officials are investigating the links between Benjamin Smith and the World Church of the Creator. Over Independence Day weekend in Illinois and Indiana, Smith shot Asians, Jews, and an African-American (killing two and injuring nine) before killing himself. Fundie cultists frequently publish lists of groups they plan to or would like to kill. From above quotes, we have MDs, “enemies of christian society” (whoever they are), heresy etc., disobedient children but only by stoning, gays, Jews, nonwhites, the topic of this thread-scientists and others. If the truth is ugly, way it goes. By their words, ye shall know them, The Book. To make things worse, they occasionally do murder people. This doesn’t happen with mainstream christian denominations that I know of. Our church always talked about world peace and eliminating poverty. If you would have suggested drawing up a list of groups to hate and kill and arms and ammmunition to buy, well, it would be inconceivable.

For evolution acceptors and science supporters, so far two have been beaten up, one killed, and many more threatened with death than just the UC biology faculty, PZ Myers, and Plianka.

Dear Prof. Myers, Thank you for posting my poem. Although it is not the most eloquent piece of literature, it does come from the heart, which is what counts. I guess you sensed that and wanted to share it with your friends! I recently read through the Ameican Declaration of Independence. I was surprised to see three references to a Creator God: (1) "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." (2) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;" (3) "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." Now considering that the Declaration declares God, our money is inscribed with "In God We Trust", our songs sing out "God Bless America", and our Pledge of Allegiance affirms that we are "One Nation Under God", it seems that people who hold to atheistic views like Darwinian Naturalism (that nature created itself) are not only foolish scientists, but they are unpatriotic Americans as well! I am looking forward to the day when Congress will convene an American Inquisition to force scientists who believe in Devilution either to recant their views and to be properly reeducated or to forfeit their citizenship and to be deported to a place like Communist China, which will appreciate your atheism and hatred of God. Of course, it would be preferable for these scientists to willingly subject themselves to reeducation without resort to an Inquisition. But rest assured that the day is coming when the stubborn arrogance of the Darwinists, who hold themselves above normal scientific accountability, will force our society to take firm action to protect itself from their dangerous prevarications. But you can relax: unlike the Roman Catholic Inquisition, the American Inquisition will not burn recalcitrant sinners against true scientific reason at the stake; it will merely strip them of their citizenship and expel them from these sacred shores! Posted by: Michael Korn | March 14, 2008 11:03 AM #90THIS IS A PROMISE, NOT A THREAT! Posted by: Michael Korn | March 14, 2008 11:30 AM #91THIS IS A PROMISE, NOT A THREAT! Just like Jesus promised so many millennia ago, "'Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"? Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 14, 2008 11:44 AM #92THIS IS A PROMISE, NOT A THREAT! Michael, this thread is 3 months old. No one is looking at it. They go dead in a day as they slip down the list. You shouldn't be posting your threats (or promises) anyway. People already think you are crazy and the police are looking for you. And FWIW, your language and sentiments are not exactly what good Jews or Xians would express. Posted by: raven | March 14, 2008 11:45 AM #93Michael Korn fulfills the prophesy of scripture! He's the Wandering 'Tard! Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 14, 2008 11:45 AM #94Is there a way to trace this Korn nutcase's IP address? Isn't there still a warrant out for his arrest on those death threats (and it looks like he's making more now)? I don't suppose Mike's actually read the U.S. Constitution. You know, the document that actually lays out the workings of American government? The one that explicitly forbids religious tests for public office? The one that doesn't mention his precious god even ONCE? Or is he going to desperately grasp at the date? Really, if the intent was to create a "Christian Nation" (whatever that term means, if anything at all), why would it not be stated as such in the Constitution? I have never seen a single one of these theocrats even attempt to answer this question. Has anyone? The idiot also isn't aware that "In God We Trust" wasn't put on coins until 1864, or on paper money until 1957. And he clearly hasn't read the ORIGINAL version of the Pledge of Allegiance, which had no mention of any god. Of course, theocratic traitors never bother to learn these things. Who needs facts when you can Lie For Jesus™? Michael Korn, you lust for the murder of American citizens. You seek the overthrow of the United States government, the destruction of our Constitution, and the abolishment of the freedom our soldiers fought and died for. You, sir, are a traitor. YOU are the one who is Un-American. Get the fuck out of my country. Posted by: phantomreader42 | March 14, 2008 1:59 PM #95i am out of your country. i don't live in the polluted fatuous bubble that you call home. i was born here and it is my country too. may the best man win... try arguing the science next time, big boy. see this: http://scienceagainstevolution.org/pogge.htm he is a military scientist and veteran who isn't afraid to write the truth about the drop headed darwinist traitors to america. you are contaminating our country with vile english heresies. you are a lobster back red coat torry and unwelcome on these sacred shores. Posted by: Michael Korn | March 14, 2008 5:57 PM #96YAY! More crazy! Posted by: MAJeff, OM | March 14, 2008 5:59 PM #97PS i didnt say we have to be mandated as a Christian nation. just a God-fearing one. and if you dont like that go suck some commie bottom in beijing. where you and other traitors belong.

Raven, You are not supposed to admit on Panda’s Thumb that Mirecki was beat-up. It upsets the conservatives.

FL:

...having seen Johnson pop in here on rare occasions, I wonder if he will deign to defend himself on this?

Phillip Johnson doesn't need to. PZ Myers has already proved Johnson 100% correct. Take a look:

“It’s the Darwinists who hold the power in academia and who threaten the professional status and livelihoods of anyone who disagrees,” Johnson said. “They feel to teach anything but their orthodoxy is an act of professional treason.”

(PZ sez) "Our only problem is that we aren’t martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough. The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many schoolboard members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians."

Case closed, baby!!! FL

??? Not sure what you mean. Before my time but I just went by internet documents.

yes, inside issue from long ago.

suffice it to say there was a schism here over the issue that never healed.

for what it's worth, i still think Gary had the right of it (from the PoV that the 'thumb should be taking wrt to the incident), regardless of whatever the details of the case turned out to be afterwards.

I really can’t figure out why you guys are arguing with an ignorant hack like “FL”.

we're not.

he's arguing with himself.

we're just laughing at him.

I say let him/her go read his/her Wholly Babble and enjoy.

the problem is he doesn't enjoy his wholly babble; he insists on coming here to whine on an at least weekly basis. One might almost think he considers this a pulpit or something.

frankly, I've been asking for years that he be auto-booted to the BW (he hasn't said anything honest or original that I've noticed in over a year now), but Pim seems to have grown fond of him for some reason totally unclear to me still.

I hope he doesn't grow fond of Keith, too. I come here less and less as it is.

Of course, it would be preferable for these scientists to willingly subject themselves to reeducation without resort to an Inquisition.

I do keep wishing that these psychos would stop reading 1984 as if it were an instruction manual.

FL: Mike Gene is a scientist too, don't forget. You disagree with his statement?

And Mike Gene, he is a dyed-in-the-wool Intelligent Design supporter.

— Rolf

D'Oh!

Disregard my last comment.

I was thinking of DaveScot, not Mike Gene. Though I vaguely recall the latter also conceding a lot to evolution.

Something about those 4-letter names...

FL:

...having seen Johnson pop in here on rare occasions, I wonder if he will deign to defend himself on this?

Phillip Johnson doesn't need to. PZ Myers has already proved Johnson 100% correct. Take a look:

“It’s the Darwinists who hold the power in academia and who threaten the professional status and livelihoods of anyone who disagrees,” Johnson said. “They feel to teach anything but their orthodoxy is an act of professional treason.”

(PZ sez) "Our only problem is that we aren’t martial enough, or vigorous enough, or loud enough, or angry enough. The only appropriate responses should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing and humiliation of some teachers, many schoolboard members, and vast numbers of sleazy far-right politicians."

Case closed, baby!!! FL

MPW:< ... The only people who disagree are those whose reasoning and work are demonstrably deficient. Thus, shockingly, their careers aren't very successful - not because they challenge some hidebound orthodoxy, but because they refuse to be held to even the minimal standards in their field. In a similar fashion, geocentrists "hold the power" in astronomy departments; germ theorists "hold the power" in medical schools; historians who accept the occurrence of the Holocaust "hold the power" in history departments; etc. So what?