The Hovind Saga Continues

Sounds like he's getting the Paris Hilton treatment.

do not put "Dr." in front of his name. LOL

And those commenters are frightening people. The "End Times" folks give me the heebie-jeebies.

Unbelievably, I agree with Hovind's statements about a lot of non-violent criminals. Of course, he had to become one before he cared about them. I never thought a creationist nut like Hovind would say something more complex than a description of the weather that I could agree with. (For the record, I have a very "tough" attitude toward violent crime, theft, and fraud.)

Hovind deserves every minute of a stiff sentence for tax evasion, in a real facility, but there's no reason he or any other prisoner should be subjected to excessive or inhumane treatment - in the unlikely event that that is actually happening.

No-one should be made to sleep on a concrete floor, obviously. Neither is it the state's business if someone calls him "doctor", laughable as that may be - it's not a legally restricted term. (The list of stuff he can't receive is just standard, of course - a DVD can be broken and used to stab somebody, food is a pain to screen, and so on.)

It's hard to see how a wimpy tax evader like Hovind could deserve lockdown, but we don't know the details, nor whether this is true.

Which "part" of the Bible are they letting him have? Hopefully the more peaceful and forgiving later part. Given some of the more rancid stuff in the Old Testament, I can see why the guards wouldn't want #06452-017 bringing more violent ideas to a prison population not known for civility.

"He is now in solitary confinement for 23 1/2 hours per day, in a small cell."

This should give him plenty of time to think about the errors of his ways and the people who he had cheated. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. He is getting everything he deserves.

PZ has more commentary. There is an interesting split -- some people suspect this may be a case of inappropriate action on the part of the federal prisons. I want to emphasize again that we don't really know anything beyond the fact that a CSE blogger is claiming Hovind is in solitary confinement. It could be that Hovind did something that brought this on, it could be that he is not actually in solitary at all and was just in a temporary transfer cell or something and then jumped to the wrong conclusion...which he has been known to do before.

Solitary confinement is pretty hard. I can't imagine what he could have done to deserve that (if this is true).

I hope no one here takes delight in this.

"Remember the nails"
Priceless.

consider the source, what is more likely:
1) Hovind did something so bad that they put him in solitary

2) he's not/never was in solitary and Abramson's comments are fuel for the "Hovind is a martyr (for his christian beliefs)" fire- a.k.a. Abramson is lying

He is getting everything he deserves.

A guard has provided him with part of a "Good News for Modern Man"

The "End Times" folks give me the heebie-jeebies.

As someone who works with inmates on a voluntary basis, it sounds to me like he got tossed in "the hole". That's where inmates get sent when they violate rules or dis the C.O.'s. However, even in the hole inmates are given beds. And as far as I know, they get one hour a day for recreation (not thirty minutes).

Also, its not at all unusual for inmates who are being transferred into a new facility to be placed temporarily in solitary confinement.

In the end, my guess is that this report exaggerates Hovind's actual circumstances.

It's hard to see how a wimpy tax evader like Hovind could deserve lockdown, but we don't know the details, nor whether this is true.

I don't think the Feds keep their prisoners in the same locals they lived in before conviction. Also, to move a prisoner convicted of a white collar type crime from a minimum security facility to a medium security one the prisoner would have had to commit a number of offences, a fairly serious single one, or be considered a security/escape risk. Minimum security prisons have their own punishment system and prisoners wouldn't be moved to correct a minor disciplinary problem.

Hovind's move from one facility to another may be nothing more than preparation for his being moved to a third, outside the Florida panhandle area. Alternatively, posting comments about the prison to an Internet blog might have got him categorized as a security/escape risk.

Otherwise he'd have been in a place like Martha Stewart or Leona Helmsley.

— moses

Knowing Hovinds past, He himself is probably responsible for his current solitary confidement. He has repeated broken rules and the cried foul when someone holds him accountable.

Any news on when his wife/rest of the family will be joining him in jail?

Also, its not at all unusual for inmates who are being transferred into a new facility to be placed temporarily in solitary confinement.

=== UPDATE ON DR. HOVIND === Jesus almost did not mention the foreign Roman occupiers of Israel, when He walked among us about 2,000 years ago. False religious teachers though, who wanted most the respect of men, they were a different matter. Many times Christ spoke strongly against their sort. (See Matthew 23.) Many modern prison chaplains are Christians. I would expect that most of them are Christians, since it can be a thankless ministry. But it stands to reason that some of them are not. And they, like the Pharisees before them, can't stand the Gospel message and those who would spread it. It cuts in on their turf. Brother Hovind got in trouble with the chaplain in the federal prison where he was previously held. The chaplain actually tried to get Dr. Hovind in trouble on more than one occasion. And the chaplain told him to stop holding Bible studies. The chaplain called them "unauthorized meetings." Dr. Hovind was following the rules that no more than 5 men could meet together. He kept holding the Bible studies (only with 3-4 others at a time) and witnessing to his fellow inmates whenever he could. And just like before, in the county jail, men were responding to the Word! They were coming to know Christ as their Savior and Lord. Suddenly last week Dr. Hovind was shipped out of that institution and sent to another, where he is now in a bare cell, isolated in solitary confinement, as was learned and reported yesterday. ... Paul Abramson Editor of www.cseblogs.com

Well if it's true, he will have less opportunity to bother god.

And again if it's true I feel sorry for the guards who would have to have contact with him.

He could do the right thing and go on a hunger strike for evangelical Tax Evasion and never take another bite until the government gives in.

The guy operates above the law as if he were god himself.

Give unto Kent what is Caesars.

He has the perfect excuse, blaming his whole act on 'god'.

I feel sorry for the guards who will still need to interact with him.

Maybe he could do the right thing and go on a hunger strike for evangelical tax evasion, and not take another bite until the govt. gives in.

The "End Times" folks give me the heebie-jeebies.

I've just discovered this nutcase on shortwave:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Stair

He makes Hovind seem quite sane in comparison ! For those in the UK who have access to a shortwave radio, have a listen on 6110 khz between 2pm and 4 pm and you'll see what I mean !

Sorry, but you don't have the right person. In kindness, EndTimes.

I wonder if he was trying to convert fellow inmates to his, um, beliefs, and either a) it didn't take, or b) it took well enough and the guards saw him as a subversive threat. Either one might land him in isolation, or require him to change prisons.

Most likely though, I would guess he's lying, or at best, exaggerating his situation. He does seem to live in his own world.

Doug S

During the day I work with homeowners and real estate people and I get the greatest kick out of it. My off hours are spent alone, mostly, and I get the biggest kick out of it. Solitary? I don't think that it's so bad. (Subjective opinion only, here.) I'd bet that I could do a year and emerge with a smile. Possibly a mad leer but I would place long odds against it. See, the thing is, there is so much to do when you have an unbroken sequence of hours, days, years. Ken' problem, or the problem misapprehended by his supporters, is that he has no experience acting alone, motivated solely by his own abilities and curiosity. He can't do things without the involvement (read: cheer leading) of the faithful. With them he is whole; without them, hollow, since there is so little there to begin with.

I would guess that Ken rarely spent much time without the company of acolytes and fellow godbotherers and other hangers on. The fact that he feels badly (or that others feel so on his behalf) is probably related to the fact that for a long time Ken has has an available and enthusiastic audience and now he has but other criminals for company. So what? He made his bed and he will sleep in it, on the floor or elevated a foot and a half above it. In either case he will have a mattress, paid for by you and I, and a pillow. Both are indeed cruel imitations of what he is used to but he most assuredly does not sleep on concrete. (Full disclosure: I have been to jail.)

Can we expect the purpose of imprisonment, rehabilitation that is, to be manifest in Ken's case? I doubt it, and am not alone in that doubt. But us doubters are outnumbered because of the emotional appeal of a "good man, only trying to save precious souls, being brought low for nothing more than a mere oversight." I think we have heard this tune before. It's called "What are you going to say when you stand before the throne?"

Piss, I say.

I don't know about the wrong End Times, but the right Endtimes commenting on CSE and apparently now here is evidently well separated from reality. Heebie-jeebies is a fair description.

Mr. Hovind is a narcissist who may never understand that the world and every thing in it was not put here for his sole benefit. Just imagine the satisfaction of being the prison official who got to put a god bothering evangelist in solitary for proselytising against the rules. If that's what happened.

By the way, each and every nonbeliever here and on Pharyngula have now had our very own strawmen erected for us by commenters over at CSE. Fortunately(?) our rude and childish behaviour is not enough to prevent them from loving us all.

Unfortunately our decision to separate ourselves from Himself means we will never be able to cuddle close to Him like they will. Upon inspection, there is one thing right about that. Indeed we won't meet Himself.

Gene: Some Christians have REALLY suffered, in atheist sponsored Gulags, "re-education" centers, and brainwashing camps.

Gene: Its starting.

For being a crackpot,telling lies, and for not paying his taxes ??? The whole thing seems somewhat harsh, in my opinion...

If you think that's harsh, just ask yourself how #06452-017 would have been treated had he been a black man from a high-crime area, with no connection to any high-profile right-wing church.

(Given what I've heard of prison life, the solitary confinement, if indeed he's in solitary, might be for #06452-017's own protection.)

Update. Well, no one guessed this, exactly, but someone should have. FWIW:

— Nick

I missed that before, thanks Reed.

Reed is also offering to sell lotto numbers..

Comment #174265
Posted by Gene on May 8, 2007 6:07 PM (e)

>Some Christians have REALLY suffered, in atheist sponsored Gulags, "re-education" centers, and brainwashing camps.

Right, Gene (is SImmons your last name, BTW?...) !!!

In my neighborhood there are so many of the atheist-sponsored Gulags, like the "First Baptist" one block over on main street, and the "True Bible Church" near the intersection with Eden Blvd. I mean, there is so much "re-education" going on in my neighborhood I sometimes wonder if my own brain is getting washed!

Everywhere I turn, those damn atheists are torturing Christians....Why heck Gene....you can't even run for President of the good 'ole US of A if you are a Christian! Admitting you are a Christian is tantamount to political suicide! You'll never get elected to public office if you are a Christian. In fact. you'll get the orange jumpsuit treatment in one of those atheist sponsored Gulags. You know.....waterboarding for Satan? Gene...do you hear me? No more Sunday school, that's for sure. You have to be an atheist to get elected in this God-dammed non-Christian nation.

>Its starting.

I know....the spiders crawling up your arm again.....the hideous pink elephant in the corner of the room.....threatening.....reading the "Origin of Species"......damn, Gene.....I honestly don't know how you can maintain your sanity, given the circumstances. Honestly, I don't.

Solitary confinement is pretty hard. I can't imagine what he could have done to deserve that (if this is true). I hope no one here takes delight in this.

Hovind is a whining wimp. Some Christians have REALLY suffered, in atheist sponsored Gulags, "re-education" centers, and brainwashing camps. Hell, Sam Harris in The End of Faith says that it is ethical to KILL people for BELIEFS if the BELIEFS are judged dangerous enough. BELIEFS, not just actions. Its starting.

I just junked a particularly crude comment from "Pumpkinhead".

Hovind's defenders are extraordinarily deluded, paranoid people who have a sketchy relationship with reality at the best of times. The appropriately named Pumpkinhead is a mild example, actually.

I think that everyone should lay off Hovind until the facts are in. He could be on suicide watch. Picking on the guy may only make you regret it later.

Pumpkin head? Pumpkin head is just pumpkin head who else wants to be like that?

Anyone know if Hovind's wife has been sentenced yet?

Pumpkinhead: Yea a Creationist living in a country whose political ideology has been shifting to the religious right end of the spectrum for decades was thrown in prison for his religious beliefs. The same beliefs that the current Administration of said country seems to whole heartedly support. Give me a break.

He's a cheat and a crook, end of story.

Anyone know if Hovind's wife has been sentenced yet?

— ck1

Ron Okimoto: WTF? Why would I regret it later if Hovind does the Danny Deever? Deep Sixes himself, Goes to meet his Maker? Visits the Devil at his new home?

Get hold of yourself Ron, or maybe seek professional counseling! Icould wish and pray that Hovind offs himself 24 hours a day... and it would NOT affect the conman in any way, shape or form.

HTH

Raven -

Gene's comment that "it's starting" is apparently delusional.

His comment that Christians have suffered in Gulags, essentially for "being Christians", is almost certainly factually true of the Soviet Union. Technically they would have been punished for "behavior", not "beliefs", of course.

Pumpkinhead's always humorous satire notwithstanding, another way to get into a Stalin era Gulag would have been to endorse the theory of evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

Cheer up, my put-upon Christian friends...one day the relentless persecution of Christians will end, and you will be able to build a church in every town, right in the center where everyone can see it...maybe even a dozen churches in every town, one for each little denomination or faction...maybe you'll even get tax-exempt status...

On the email list, I speculated that it was because of a turf war between Hovind and the chaplain.

Brother Hovind got in trouble with the chaplain in the federal prison where he was previously held. The chaplain actually tried to get Dr. Hovind in trouble on more than one occasion. And the chaplain told him to stop holding Bible studies. The chaplain called them "unauthorized meetings." Dr. Hovind was following the rules that no more than 5 men could meet together. He kept holding the Bible studies (only with 3-4 others at a time) and witnessing to his fellow inmates whenever he could. And just like before, in the county jail, men were responding to the Word! They were coming to know Christ as their Savior and Lord. Suddenly last week Dr. Hovind was shipped out of that institution and sent to another, where he is now in a bare cell, isolated in solitary confinement, as was learned and reported yesterday. ... Paul Abramson Editor of www.cseblogs.com

Wow, reading that stuff is like reading Pravda - you need the decoder ring to figure out the reality behind the representation. The chaplain "trying to get Hovind in trouble" sounds like Hovind was clearly breaking some clear rules. Perhaps the chapain wasn't really involved here, who knows? Carrying on technically within the rules sounds bogus - it sounds much more like Hovind simply ignored all reprimands. Bringing others "to know Christ as their Savior and Lord" sounds like organizing some serious trouble.

I speculate that they pulled him aside and tried to talk sense into him. Quickly realizing the total futility of such a tactic, they decided to move to Plan B.

Flint: #06452-017 may have got in an argument with a chaplain whose interpretation of Scripture differed from his own, and perhaps the argument got nasty, as religious wars tend to do. He may have thought he could bully and bullshit his way to the top of whatever religious hierarchy he found, and didn't count on other convicted criminals being a bit more...territorial...than parishoners on the outside.

Also, #06452-017 probably had absolutely no clue how to conduct himself in a prison setting, as he's never been in one before and never thought he would be. In addition, he and his kind aren't used to taking responsibility for themselves, so he'd probably be a bit slow to adapt himself to the new environment.

My thought is that Hovind is being taught that he does not run the prison- he is the prisoner not the warden.

This is going to be a very difficult reality for him to admit. If you recall, even after he was found guilty of all counts he was on the telephone talking about how much trouble he was going to cause the IRS, the judge, etc., and that he would forgive them if they released him. The man is delusional.

Note that in Hovind's blog post he wrote, "At lunch last week, one of the inmates said, "If I could,..." inmate not prisoner, not fellow prisoner, not even another inmate. Hovind wrote about the importance of his "job," how he was glad of the free time to read and write. He does not realize he is a prisoner.

He will come to learn he is a prisoner, or he will have an extremely difficult 10 years. If he cannot learn that he does not run the prison, he will become frustrated. That frustration will become anger which will lead to resistance and acting out inappropriately. He will then be punished which will merely add to his anger. These also has a direct effect on other prisoners. By isolating him, taking away all privleges, being told when to sit- when to stand, when to eat, and so on, he is being taught that he is a prisoner and that as a prisoner he has no power and no control over his life.

If he dosen't "get it" this time, he will learn about restraints. If that won't work, he will learn about physical pain being applied by large well trained men. Guards particularly dislike having to do what are called "extractions." This is when a prisoner has refused to leave his cell when ordered to do so, or to resist being restrained before leaving his cell. The guards dislike this for two reasons; they (mostly) don't enjoy hurting people, even prisoners, and often a guard is injured- typically a back injury or a broken finger.

Could be. As was said about Napoleon, he became such a good liar you couldn't even rely on the opposite of what he said. About all we can know for certain from reading the CSE blog is that everything written there is very very seriously distorted, perhaps beyond any recognition. I imagine if you'd witnessed exactly what happened and then read Hovind's account of it, you'd have trouble connecting the two in any way. Everything is filtered through an insanitizer, to be regurgitated by sycophants with pinhole tunnel vision - and who are unable to look in the right direction anyway.

So the asshole Hovind even piss off the chaplain!!!! Way to go Kevin, idiot to the end. Jail has discipline as a pillar and you better follow the orders given. If you don't follow the orders you get in trouble. But differently from what Kevin is used to, in jail they will punish you. For real this time. So the idiot in jail broke rules and now is sowing what he reaped.

Hovind is a predator/parasite who gamed one system, "society" for years successfully. Even after he got caught, he tried (unsuccessfuly) to game the system. All that happened there was that he ticked off the judge and cops.

My guess is that he is now trying to game the new system known as prison. Unfortunately, this has been tried before about a zillion times and they are used to it. Doesn't look like Hovind is a very quick learner. It does look like he is in the right place.

Is he incorrigible or can he adapt? Stay tuned. FWIW, one company (in Florida no less!) was selling perpetual motion machines. The CEO's last job was....being in prison for fraud. Some people never change no matter what happens to them.

If you think that's harsh, just ask yourself how #06452-017 would have been treated had he been a black man from a high-crime area, with no connection to any high-profile right-wing church.

Brave Christians who challenge the teachings of evolutionism will increasingly find themselves guilty of tax-related offenses. You could be next.

maybe you'll even get tax-exempt status...

So, next month Jo Hovind goes to prison.

I will make a gentalmanly wager that she has been trying to scrounge up all the assets she can to pay the IRS. If she can, maybe they will not go after Eric Hovind. I was very surprised when listening to the telephone conversations offered at the sentencing hearing to hear Eric Hovind discussing how various assets had been removed and hidden. This is also illegal to the best of my understanding.

Comment #174436 Posted by Raging Bee on May 9, 2007 10:18 AM (e) Cheer up, my put-upon Christian friends...one day the relentless persecution of Christians will end, and you will be able to build a church in every town, right in the center where everyone can see it...maybe even a dozen churches in every town, one for each little denomination or faction...maybe you'll even get tax-exempt status...

Comment #174367 Posted by Pumkinhead on May 9, 2007 3:26 AM (e) The official propaganda line spouted by the evolutionists who ran those gulags was not that they were thrown there for their beliefs, but rather they committed some crime against the State. This is exactly what is going on with Hovind. Believe me, if the IRS looked hard enough they could find some anomaly with anybody's tax return. Brave Christians who challenge the teachings of evolutionism will increasingly find themselves guilty of tax-related offenses. You could be next.

My first guess was that Hovind felt the need to *request* protective custody and I wondered what incident precipitated that. It also would explain the vagueness of the details coming out in the blog.

Comment #174491 Posted by Peter Henderson on May 9, 2007 3:09 PM (e) I'm sure you're right raging bee. It was the same here (NI) at one time in a different way. It's just that in this part of the world some people have committed mass murder and gotten away with it. One particular individual helped to slaughter 11 innocent people and only served a few years of a multiple life sentence. Still, after yesterdays momentous events at stormont all that type of thing is hopefully behind us.It's just that from my perspective Hovind's crimes do seem somewhat trivial. If he'd co-operated with the IRS then he probably wouldn't be in the situation he's in now. I do know that here in the UK, tax inspectors are reluctant to send offenders to prison, and they usually only take this action as a last resort or if fraud is involved. Far better to sort the situation out amicably before it gets to this stage. They'll usually come to some sort of arrangement if you co-operate with them.

Had he just plead ignorance or stupidity, it'd never gotten beyond the civil stage.

Anti Atheist: I notice you can't even TRY to make anything resembling a coherent point without changing the subject all the way to Hitchens and Trotsky. If you can't stay on-topic, at least you can show us a link to prove your "point." Or are you making that up as well?

TAA: The current wave of atheist propaganda books...Hitches latest where he talks about his admiration for the nun killer Trotsky and the "ethical glories" of Marism is a gas...indicated the times may be a changing.

The Anti Atheist is correct, atheists have big plans for us.

Why they pretend they have no agenda...after all, so what? Who doesn't...is puzzling unless it is perhaps to cover up their dishonest use of science as a front for pushing athesim; as Dawkins, Harris and Comrade Hitchens do.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:apn-Q1SztTsJ:www.martinamisweb.com/documents/koba_hitchens_letter.doc+hitchens+trotsky+nun+killer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Grady, a 5 year old letter to the editor in the Guardian is hardly a compeling argument. The letter itself was as scattered a rant as I have ever read.

I suppose that you and "anti-atheist" have wandered here following the link on Hovind's blog.

Stay a while. Read some of the science items, you might learn something.

Grady and antiatheist are just lunatic fringer cultists. Their basic message is that there is some sort of international scientist atheistic conspiracy or some such. They have no evidence it exists because it doesn't.

People who identify themselves as christians make up 82% of the US population. It takes a reality denier to call them a persecuted minority.

Science has brought us from the caves to the 21st century, running water, doubled life spans, electricity, cheap computers, cars. Somehow they manage to ignore those facts. Must think material progress is prayed into existence or something.

So what it the agenda of the culties? No secret just ask them. Abolish separaration of church and state after overthrowing the US government. Then back to the dark ages of witch hunts and short, ugly lives. Not going to be a popular movement IMO.

A religionist complains about atheists' "dishonest use of science" to promote atheism. I take it he doesn't have a working irony meter to hand. Only the best ones go that high without breaking.

Hey, don't blame ME!

Josh Rosenau, over at Thoughts From Kansas calls him Christopher SNITCHENS.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:apn-Q1SztTsJ:www.martinamisweb.com/documents/koba_hitchens_letter.doc+hitchens+trotsky+nun+killer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Hey, Grady,

Great to see Big Sugar is back together. Are you touring the west coast?

Oh. Not that Grady. Never mind.

Grady: Hey, don't blame ME! Josh Rosenau, over at Thoughts From Kansas calls him Christopher SNITCHENS. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

They have no evidence it exists because it doesn't.

— raven

Administrative facilities are institutions with special missions, such as the detention of pretrial offenders; the treatment of inmates with serious or chronic medical problems; or the containment of extremely dangerous, violent, or escape-prone inmates. . . . Administrative facilities are capable of holding inmates in all security categories. Source

"Identity: A 'Christian' Religion for White Racists" An article from the Christian Research Journal (Fall 1992, page 20) by Viola Larson. The Editor-in-Chief of the Christian Research Journal is Elliot Miller. Summary "Christian Identity" is the name of a religious movement uniting many of the white supremacist groups in the United States. Identity's teachers promote racism and sometimes violence. Their roots are deeply embedded in movements such as the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ They consider themselves true Israel and view the Jews as half-devils and arch enemies. They believe all but the white race are inferior creations. ***************************** Identity's religious views are bizarre and occultic, and their view of history is often informed by conspiracy theories. Identity's use of the name "Christian" to promote racism and violence is blasphemous. Jesus Christ as redeemer of all races is God's supreme answer to Identity's outrageous claims. from hearnow.org

I suppose that you and "anti-atheist" have wandered here following the link on Hovind's blog. Stay a while. Read some of the science items, you might learn something.

Actually. raven, Edwin Black does a much better job of linking the racist elitist crap to Darwins influence in War Against the Weak.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

The Eugenics movement, which is still with us, although in different forms, was heavily influenced by Darwin and his cousin Francis Galton.

In fact, In the Descent of Man Darwin specifically praised Galtons work.

So who ya kiddin?

Besides yourself, "raven".

Christopher Hitchens, Josh Rosenau at Thoughts from Kansas calls him Christopher SNITHCHENS as Grady kindly pointed out

Oh, gracious!

"Antichrist"--in my attribution of the quote above--should've been "AntiAtheist."

Whatever was I thinking?

Anti Atheist, getting less coherent every day, wrote:

(One thing Hitchens forgets to mention is the mass murderer committed by EVERY officially atheistic goverment.)

And one thing YOU forget to mention is the mass murders committed by a lot of officially religious regimes. Hitler called himself a Christian; the civil wars between Catholics and Protestants during and after the Reformation were pretty nasty; and Muslims today aren't particularly nice to Christians or Jews. Those are just the examples I can think of in haste at this moment.

And here's a bit of blatant hypocricy on your part. First you say ...how perverted a philosphy [evolution] is in practice.

Then you say:

Evolution, which in its mainstream formulations has meant different things at different times...

Make up your mind: is evolution "A" philosophy, or "different things at different times?"

...had been equated with atheism in the minds of many. This is because atheists have so equated it.

Really? Of all the people who "equate" evolution with atheism, most have been religious opponents of evolution. Furthermore, most of the atheists I've talked to have explicitly said that evolution has nothing to do with athieism or any religion.

You're telling the same lie about evolution that your kind told about heliocentrism and germ theory: you can't accept it, but you can't disprove it, so you try to equate it with atheism instead.

...Edwin Black does a much better job of linking the racist elitist crap to Darwins influence in War Against the Weak.

"Racist elitist crap" predates Darwin by THOUSANDS of years. Do you creationists read ANY history?

And before you say that racists used Darwin to justify their atrocities, please note that racists also used religious doctrines -- and still use them today -- to justify the same atrocities, and more besides.

Atheistic mass murderers???

You mean the al-qaeda moslem mass murderers who flew planes into the world trade center were atheists?

You mean the atheistic Sunni and Shiite moslem sectarians who savagely butcher each other when they aren't taking shots at US soldiers or trying to wipe Israel off the map from Lebanon or the Gaza?

You mean the atheistic Puritans who hanged 33 people for witchcraft in Salem?

You mean the atheistic Catholic and Protestants who killed millions during the 400 years of sectarian violence which fizzled out a whole 7 years ago in Northern Ireland after the crusades failed.

You mean the Nazis who frequently invoked the churches in their struggle to take over the world and kill all nonaryans?

You mean the atheistic hindus and moslems who frequently kill each other in India over whatever religious fanatics kill each other for.

There is a dark side to religions, the fanatics who think god gave them a license to kill. That is why the USA has separated church from state and it is going to stay that way. No one wants to risk another outbreak of god is on our side, so DIE!. I'm sure you don't like it and I'm glad you don't.

raven --- While what you say is certainly true, do not forget the mass murders committed by Communists in the USSR, China and Cambodia.

Communism is not a religion, AFAIK, so another cause needs be ascribed...

Hovind is getting exactly what he deserves. This is what he wrote in "Chapter 3" of the 1995 seminar he used to give - most of which he's still purveying (probably word-for-word) today:
"The dentist said, Mr. Hovind, this kid has a cavity. I said, Yes sir, I know about that. Are you talking about the big one in his head or the one in his tooth?...I said, Its no problem. When he gives you the shot, your mouth will go numb so he can drill out the bad part and fill the hole with silver....Have you ever seen a kid freak out; I mean completely lose control in a dentists chair? He lost it. He was screaming and hollering and yelling. Well, the doctor called the nurse, and the nurse sat on him, the doctor sat on him, and I sat on him. We tried to hold him still, but we couldnt hold him still enough for that kind of operation....I said, Doc, let me take him outside and talk to him for a few minutes. We went out to the parking lot, got in the old Chevy van and sat in the back seat. I said, Son, listen carefully. You know that I love you. He said, I know daddy. I said, Now son, I told you to sit still. You did not sit still. What happens when you disobey daddy? He said, Sniff, sniff... I get a spanking? I said, Correct, bend over. Boy, did I give him a spanking, and it was a doozy. A few minutes later, smoke was rising off his hind end, tears were coming out of his eyes, and pearls were coming out of his nostrils -- the whole thing."

In my book that's child abuse.

Budikka

There is also a very good feedback section Gary, but perhaps you could answer a question for me. I'm curious as to why the site hasn't updated (including the feedback section) since last November (6 months now) ? What on Earth is going on ? I'd hate anything to happen to it. It's a valuable resource !

David B. Benson: raven --- While what you say is certainly true, do not forget the mass murders committed by Communists in the USSR, China and Cambodia. Communism is not a religion, AFAIK, so another cause needs be ascribed...

Might just as well blame the germ theory of disease or the law of gravity for the ills of the world.

AA was right, the atheist Trotsky was a nun killing pervert from the start. His atheism fueled his fire.

could the fracking IDiots please tell me when did Trotsky commit mass murder?
and when did the USSR take 100 MILLION of lifes?
(not that they didn't commit mass murder and various other attrocities but 100 million?)
do you fracking know any fracking history or do you just make stuff up? (rhetorical question of course)
and by the way is the fracking bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (among numerous other events) by the Christian USA ,the land of the free and the home of the brave,not a fracking mass murder and war crime?

and most importantly,
do you fracking IDiots know anything about judeo-christian-muslim ,that is abrahamic, history?

how many ancient civilisations according to the Old Testament
did the jews call for god to destroy?
how many nations to slay?
and what does that mean in real life terms,what in fact happened?

how did the christian religion become dominant in the grecoroman world?
by admiration of the christians by the "pagans" for their good deeds and character?
how did the word "pagan" come to mean what it means?
why are most ancient statues,temples,buildings,etc severely damaged or destroyed
here in the general area of the ancient grecoroman world?
does the cry-motto "es gen pherein" remind you of anything?
how did the library of Alexandria burn?
how did Hypatia die?
where is the vast in quality and quantity treasure and heritage of ancient human knowledge-beliefs(books)?
how did the olympic games stop being held?
who "closed" the many and various philosophical schools?
what happened to people calling themselves Hellen-Hellenes (in spirit-culture not -only- in nationality) in the christian roman empire?
what happened to scientists ,nonbelievers or haeretics in the later period?
what happened to "pagan" indigenous nations and civilisations during the christian period of colonisation?
what were the methods of proselytising?

how did mohammed come to power?
how was the muslim arabic-islamic empire created and what
happened to succumbing nations-people-enemies-prisoners?
what happened in Constantinoupolis
right after being taken by the muslim turks?
how many virgins and young boys did the killed muslim (turk) soldiers
enjoy having in heaven for doing god's-allah's divine work?
and how was the life of infidels in and during the ottoman empire?

-----------
This is not a site where you can preach and the people, the poemnion,
being ignorant and iliterate,
just believe you,obey you and praise the lord.

THIS is a SCIENTIFIC-FREE-THINKER'S blog.
stop BSing.

PS
it would be an interesting fact for you ,western fanatics, to know
that here in the east,
where the christians still keep to the ancient-original
traditions and beliefs and especially in my country where they also
keep to the bible's prototype-original language and text
(to fellow non IDiots-Creationists
of course please note that "original" is a figure of speech
in scientific terms and that anyway I really don't give a ... for us doing so)
most of you don't count as christians.

Thanatos --- Despite its other problems, I am certainly under the impression that the Ottoman Empire was noted for its religious tolerance...

David
if you mean that one could keep to one's own religion,that's more or less true
but only in the later period when the empire was firmly established.

So, unfortunately, the figure is not made up.

They all failed. And Snithchens, Dawkins and Harris will fail. You will fail.

I wouldn't expect a highly educated and superbly intelligent individual like yourself
to understand that because inside A book
(and for this I trust you -god help me- since I've not read it)
A thesis is published
that automatically (if of course ,incidently matches with and backs up, one's world belief)
it becomes The truth.
of course I wouldn't expect you to understand things like critical thinking...
so I must speak the divine truth,that is
I have, as I'm writing to you,
next to me, in my library ,the Protocols of the Wise(Elders)
of Sion.So since they're printed they must speak the truth.
I also have next to me,the Greek Mythology.
So Zeus is the mighty God,and since I'm greek and you are not,
get under your bed cause in a while
following Zeus orders,after my prayer,
Nemesis will strike you...

as for your other "point", you genius, if you were able to read and comprehend adequately,
you would see that I didn't say that attrocities by the soviets didn't take place in general...

by the way I saw no answer concerning the abrahamic religions' -let's say- interesting history...

"Marx, Nietzsche, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Russell, Sartre; all brillilant if evil men who tried to destroy Christianity using various fronts (economics, psychology, their version of science as atheism, etc.)

They all failed.

And Snithchens, Dawkins and Harris will fail.

You will fail."

Isn't this akin to saying:

Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, natives from Africa, Asia, Australia, America, and Oceania; all brilliant if misguided people who tried to make sense of the universe using religion.

They all failed.

And Christians, Muslims, and Jews will fail.

You will fail.

I'm not claiming that this argument is correct, but I wonder if there is a substantial difference between the two.

For the matter, my personal opinion of christianity is that it's so widespread because it's predatory.

Anti Athiest,

Hovind was not killed for his beliefs. Hovind was imprisoned after a fair trial for breaking the law, repeatedly and without remorse.

AntiAtheist, in order to establish that atheism leads to the atrocities you mentioned (Gulags, eugenics, genocide, etc.), you need to show two things:

1) In the absence of atheism, those atrocities don't happen, and
2) During times and places where there are no such atrocitites, there's no atheism.

(Good luck.)

Normally Anti-Atheist's arguments wouldn't convince me, but I'm just dazzled by all those caps. Makes for a very compelling argument.

Does it strike anyone odd, besides me, that we--who supposedly support rationalism--have written lines and lines and lines of opinions here without a shred of evidence that what started it all, Abramson's note, has any basis whatsoever in truth?

I find it kinda spooky that folks here are willing to gather around and metaphorically start kicking the guy (a major weirdo and convicted criminal, to be sure) because someone metaphorically yelled, "Go get him!"

Do I/we dislike his ilk? Damn straight! Why? Because he thinks things, and says things, and supports things, and does things without a shred of evidence.

Oops.

Is there any outside verification that Hovind is actually in solitary? Nine-will-get-you-ten that these are the fundies making up stories to set Kent up as a martyr and how Xians are persecuted by the evil sec-u-larists.

#06452-017 spanked his son for being scared of a dental operation? And then bragged about it afterword? He's just as lame a father as he is a Christian -- and for the same reason: he has nothing positive to offer, even to his own kin; only negativity, hatred, and threats.

I was scared when I had to have teeth pulled too; but no one had to hold me down or spank me -- my dad explained what had to be done, said I'd be avoiding more pain in the long run, and assured me I'd get through it and live. Also, a nurse gave me a shot of something to calm me down before they started sticking needles in my mouth.

This may not be "abuse" in the strict legal sense, but it certainly is pathetic and inexcusable. And it doesn't give "Christian parenting principles" a good name either.

Anti Atheist: you can trash Dawkins and Harris all you want, but that really says nothing about atheists in general: large numbers of atheists have already distanced themselves from those two, for precisely the reasons you cited. Only a fool -- or a lying propagandist like you -- would pretend they represent the mainstream of atheist thought.

Also, please remember all the hateful, intolerant loonies who have been making YOUR side look like idiots for around two thousand years and counting. Perhaps you should clarify your position on them before you start preaching about the loonies on the other side.

#06452-017 wrote:

He was screaming and hollering and yelling. Well, the doctor called the nurse, and the nurse sat on him, the doctor sat on him, and I sat on him. We tried to hold him still, but we couldnt hold him still enough for that kind of operation...

So THREE ADULTS weren't strong enough to hold down a CHILD who was young enough to be spanked on his father's lap? Sounds like that kid had a LOT of fear. Wonder where all that fear came from...somewhere in his immediate family, perhaps? Just sayin'...

Why do I call it CommieAtheism as opposed to simply, Communism? Because Communism does NOT have to be atheistic!

— The Anti Atheist

For the matter, my personal opinion of christianity is that it's so widespread because it's predatory.

You can bet most of the evolutionists here are taking much delight in this!

umm , you do realize that hovind was ignorant and/or lying about evolution and all of that other sciency type stuff ..we "evolutionists" never paid much attention to him (well,other than calling him a liar)

and of course hovind went to jail because of stuff that he actually did

delight that a con man and liar took a hard fall .....actually it's more like relief

funny how all you liberals on this site love to hear that he is being "tortured" for his supposed crime but you all cry to stop the torture of terrorists in american prisons who have actually killed women and children and want to kill every liberal as well (unless you convert of course). shame on letting your true anti Christian colors show on your liberal sites. you guys just keep proving the Bible prophecies right more and more.

You resurrected a year old thread for that?

You're a special little boy, aren't you.

Gee Stone, are you OK? I mean, your comment doesn't sound...right. "All you liberals"? Ummmm, what does being "liberal" or "conservative" have to do with this? Hovind is in prison because he committed serious crimes. He committed those crimes knowing that they were crimes, and showed no remorse. His whole attitude was un-American, since he viewed the United States as his enemy. In spite of that attitude, he was tried and found guilty by the American justice system, which provided him every opportunity to defend himself and appeal the decision. Are you so anti-American as to think that our great nation does not provide the best justice system in the world? Do you hate our government and our country? As for torture -- it's illegal. Sorry, but it is. In fact, it is unconstitutional. Period. Written on the document and you can go see it for yourself in DC. Do you have any evidence that anyone on this site endorses terrorism or supports letting terrorists go? Terrorists who kill people deserve to be tried and punished in the same way that Hovind was -- following the laws. And following our great constitution, they deserve representation, a trial by jury, and all the rights and privileges that any of us deserve to ensure that we get a fair trial. Or is it that you feel somehow that Jesus would want you to form a lynch mob, chain 'em to a tree without a trial, and kill 'em? I've read the Bible cover to cover a number of times, but I can't seem to recall the quote from Jesus about "torture people you hate." Or was it Paul? Could you remind me?

Thanks google for helping another kook drudge up an almost year old thread?