Hovind's plea: "subornation of false muster"

What you put on a false bratwurst to make it taste better?

I'm guessing that this is tied in with Hovind's claim to be a citizen of Florida but not of the US. By his logic, therefore, federal legal institutions would have no authority to order him to court, and he's trying to point out that their actions on this front are therefore illegal.

It all makes perfect sense. If you accept that Florida isn't part of the US, of course, which is pretty ludicrous. ISTR this thesis depends on some rather heavy quote-mining of old treaties, so I guess it's not a surprise that it'd be Hovind who argued it.

Still, this doesn't give much more insight on what exactly "subornation of false muster" is supposed to be. Any guesses?

I think Buzz Lightyear said it best:

"You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity."

I am a lawyer (and a public defender)and I can only say that "subornation of false muster"
1. Does not mean what Rev. H. thinks it means.
2. Is not a plea.
3. Probably is just the reverend's way of saying: "Excuse you me while I prepare to phonate out my other orifice."
4. Is the kind of thing PD's often have to parrot on behalf of clients, leading to our general weariness and fondness for gin (or shoe polish).

Once again, it should be pointed out that all of this nuttiness is standard "Patriot Militia" boilerplate. The militia movement refuses to recognize any governmental authority above the state level (many times, not even above the county level). Many of them refuse to obtain drivers licenses, or license plates for their cars (McVeigh was pulled over, as he was leaving the scene of the oklahoma City bombing, for not having a license plate). A few of them have even printed their own money (they refuse to recognize the Federal Reserve as having any validity or authority).

They are all, without exception, cuckoo clocks. Hovind fits in well with them.

First, I would just like to say that everyone here at PT would like to express their sympathies to the public defender assigned to Hovind.

Sub= part of something bigger or under something

Ordination= the gift of power to speak on behalf of some all powerful bureaucracy, given by fiat, when judiciously applied.... can be oneself.

of false= my word against yours

Muster = the larger of 2 groups of blind people.

Thus:

Under my self appointed godliness and with my rabble I will take on the the black helicopter brigade.

To which I reply.

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.

Just who elected Hovind to be god's representative?

First, I would just like to say that everyone here at PT would like to express their sympathies to the public defender assigned to Hovind.

You can't just claim laws don't apply to you because you consider yourself a citizen of somewhere else, can you? Isn't citizenship a pretty clear legal matter?

In my practice I've had occasion to deal with drivel which originated with the freemen and related nuts who entertain bizarre political and legal theories. To someone who went to law school in this universe, they often sound like they have strung together words randomly selected from Black's Law Dictionary. Conmen have internet sites where they sell "legal" forms full of nonsense which they promise the gullible are guaranteed to produce favorable judgments in courts. The good news is that if Hovind insists on pursuing this kind of defense, there is a good chance he is going to land himself in prison for many years. The IRS loves to make examples of celebrities; Richard Hatch got 51 months in prison for not reporting his million dollar prize on "Survivor" as income.

Damn - I know Florida is far from Pennsylvania, but I think the York Daily Record absolutely should send Mike Argento to report on the trial. I would even be willing to pitch in for some of the expenses.

You can't just claim laws don't apply to you because you consider yourself a citizen of somewhere else, can you?

perhaps the point is the position Hovind occupies within his own religious community. in his position, any ludicrous explanation for any position is a humdinger argument because, well because Kent said so and people are expected to hold him in awe rather than use their brains. seems that Kent has become so used to this style of intellectual discourse that he has long forgotten the concept of someone having the authority to disagree and enforce that disagreement.

K.E wrote:

Just who elected Hovind to be god's representative?

You forgot a few: Fawell, Robertston, Dumbski, Behe, Ham, Johnson and all the other nutjobs out there.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who think they can speak for God.

"False muster" is to falsify a muster book, recording the presence of a soldier (or horse) that is not present, or by "presum[ing] to muster a person as a soldier who is not a soldier." "Subornation of false muster," then, would be to illegally instigate someone to falsify a muster book, or to presume to muster a person as a soldier who is not a soldier.

Perhaps Hovind means by this plea that the court has illegally instigated his capture and presentation before the court as though he is someone under their jurisdiction, when he isn't (so he thinks).

While reading the tale of Mr Didier's problems, it occurred to me that he felt he had added a "signing statement" to the restraining order. That makes me wonder whether George B and his henchmen subscribe to the same legal texts that Kent and Mike and their gang are using.

If Dr Dino is claiming not to be a U.S citizen, doesn't that make him an illegal alien? Instead of the IRS, maybe the INS should follow up on him. Not terribly sure where they would deport him to though.

Pensacola News Journal When pressed by Davis to enter a plea of either guilty or not guilty, Hovind said he wished to enter a plea of "subornation of false muster." "Subornation," according to Webster's Dictionary, means instigating another to do something illegal. "Muster" is an assembly, often for inspection or roll call.

I suggest central Africa. I have a friend who does field work there, and tells me of finding a couple of missionary's bodies hanging from a tree deep in the forest. Apparently they failed to reconcile their version of reality with that of the locals. Perhaps Hovind should be thankful that he lives in a country that is relatively tolerant of this type of antisocial anarchistic lunacy.

"Not terribly sure where they would deport him to though."

Does this declaration make him an enemy combatant? Deport him to Gitmo! Seriously, it troubles me that our justice system affords some individuals decades of Due-Process rights, and others none at all. If he were a less-popular type of religious fundamentalist, I'm sure his fate woule be very poor, indeed.

I think Hovind is trying to plead "sublimation of false mustard." It would make more sense coming from this crank.

Dammit, with DaveScot out of the picture I don't think UD will be blogging the Hovind case.

So when is he actually gonna get his day in court, or is this going to drag on for months? What's the deal?

Why should Hovind get any fair trial in court? He didn't pay his taxes. He should not get the benefits of a taxpayer funded legal system. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded prison. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded lethal injection. So he should just be shot and dumped somewhere. How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?

Perhaps Larry could represent Hovind?

— Laser

I think that he is claiming false persecution under God's law by an invalid court.

Oh?....

So he wants to be tried by god...does he now?

Is there anyway we can speed that up?

I thnk Sheikh Mahandi is right. He's clearly an illegal alien, most likely from outerspace, close to heaven. I suggest that he be deported back there on the first available rocket destined for outerspace, or at least Neptune, Uranus or Pluto. He's find comfort in being nearer to home. He'd be better off and so would the planet Earth.

Posted by Keanus on July 19, 2006 11:57 AM (e)

I thnk Sheikh Mahandi is right. He's clearly an illegal alien, most likely from outerspace, close to heaven. I suggest that he be deported back there on the first available rocket destined for outerspace, or at least Neptune, Uranus or Pluto. He's find comfort in being nearer to home. He'd be better off and so would the planet Earth.

Send him to Uranus. I don't want him anywhere near my anus.

Send him to Uranus. I don't want him anywhere near my anus.

Well I suppose it means that he's been "falsely instigated" to do wrong through his false into the American "muster". Sure, it doesn't make sense, but when has Hovind made sense? He probably just copied Didier (or they both copied some earlier loony), thinking that it sounded like a good way to portray himself to be above the "materialists" operating the justice system.

Yet there's no reason to dwell on the bat-cave dwellers. Hovind's just competing for the Koresh contingent. The courts aren't going to pay attention to his antics, at least no more than for any other crazy, but it'll get him some sympathy (and maybe money) from the hard-core loonies. Will it be enough to make his gambit pay? We'll just have to wait to see.

The fun at UD is probably more interesting, if also quite unimportant. Dembski has finally learned that DaveTard is a liability, not an asset, demonstrating once again that we were right (it's not like we didn't tell him), and Dembski was wrong. O'Leary's hardly much of an improvement, though, since she's even less likely to sound scientific to the rubes, some of whom probably thought DaveTard really does know science.

Most of all, Dembski's not going to regain much credibility at this point. The vacuity of his writing is presumably the reason why he resorted to the censorious fascist thug DaveTard in the first place.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm

O'Leary's hardly much of an improvement, though, since she's even less likely to sound scientific to the rubes, some of whom probably thought DaveTard really does know science.

— Glen

Comment #113372 Posted by Paul Curtin on July 19, 2006 07:07 AM (e) I am a lawyer (and a public defender)and I can only say that "subornation of false muster" 1. Does not mean what Rev. H. thinks it means.

I am a lawyer (and a public defender) and I can only say that "subornation of false muster" 1. Does not mean what Rev. H. thinks it means. 3. Probably is just the reverend's way of saying: "Excuse you me while I prepare to phonate out my other orifice."

— Paul Curtin

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/subornation
Subornation: "Perjured testimony that someone was persuaded to give."

'False muster' itself is a specific (archaic) military phrase which means impersonating someone else being roll called; yelling "here!" when someone else's name is called, thus making it so that person does not get caught AWOL.

So basically 'subornation of false muster' seems to loosely translate to 'not guilty because the incriminating testimony is false, and not given by the person claiming to have provided the testimony'... or something like that.

Sounds cool, though, I'm gonna bust that one out if I find myself in court.

Why should Hovind get any fair trial in court? He didn't pay his taxes. He should not get the benefits of a taxpayer funded legal system. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded prison. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded lethal injection. So he should just be shot and dumped somewhere. How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?

— Anonymous_Coward

Subornation of false muster? That's definitely not going to work as well as, "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?

— Anon Coward

This is presumably an attempt at a joke, but it ain't funny.

— Dale

Not terribly sure where they would deport him to though.
I've long had a fantasy in which we take all the demagogues, despots, ideological loonies, ayatollahs (of any religion), etc, and exile the lot of them to a desert island (I suggest someplace like Bikini -- contaminated from nuke testing) where they can fight it out amongst themselves, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

I nominate Hovind as first resident of the new penal colony. "Sentenced to transportation...."

How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?

— Anon Coward

This is presumably an attempt at a joke, but it ain't funny.

— Dale

"False muster" is to falsify a muster book, recording the presence of a soldier (or horse) that is not present, or by "presum[ing] to muster a person as a soldier who is not a soldier." "Subornation of false muster," then, would be to illegally instigate someone to falsify a muster book, or to presume to muster a person as a soldier who is not a soldier. Perhaps Hovind means by this plea that the court has illegally instigated his capture and presentation before the court as though he is someone under their jurisdiction, when he isn't (so he thinks).

This is Hovind's position on income tax:
http://tinyurl.com/syy7x

When the united States Government went bankrupt in the 1930's the "rich men" of the world... created [a trust account] for each PERSON... This 'straw man' has the same letters as your name but in all capital letters (ie. KENT HOVIND the STRAW MAN instead of Kent Hovind a real person created by God). It was created by the government so it belongs to them and the government has the authority to create laws, require permits and licenses, and do anything they desire to their straw man. Look at any driver's license, marriage license, social security card, or any government issued permit or license. The 'name' will be in all capital letters. This is not you, it is your straw man.

In other words, KENT HOVIND is being charged with these crimes, not Kent Hovind. If Kent Hovind answesr to the charges made of KENT HOVIND that would be "false muster". Since the judge is making him answer, then that is "subornation of false muster"

Simple, no?

In other words, KENT HOVIND is being charged with these crimes, not Kent Hovind. If Kent Hovind answesr to the charges made of KENT HOVIND that would be "false muster". Since the judge is making him answer, then that is "subornation of false muster"

This is Hovind's position on income tax: http://tinyurl.com/syy7x When the united States Government went bankrupt in the 1930's the "rich men" of the world... created [a trust account] for each PERSON... This 'straw man' has the same letters as your name but in all capital letters (ie. KENT HOVIND the STRAW MAN instead of Kent Hovind a real person created by God). It was created by the government so it belongs to them and the government has the authority to create laws, require permits and licenses, and do anything they desire to their straw man. Look at any driver's license, marriage license, social security card, or any government issued permit or license. The 'name' will be in all capital letters. This is not you, it is your straw man. In other words, KENT HOVIND is being charged with these crimes, not Kent Hovind. If Kent Hovind answesr to the charges made of KENT HOVIND that would be "false muster". Since the judge is making him answer, then that is "subornation of false muster" Simple, no?

What's the reaction been in the creationist blogosphere to the arrest? I haven't seen overly much, didn't even make memeorandum.

For those of us who are trying to point out the shysterism of the ID movement, this is a good way to make a point of how unethical the ID/Creationist leaders are. And considering the investigation, who knows what other nasty secrets will turn up? The louder the preacher, the more skeletons in the closet.

I've always wondered what the heck the deal was with these maroons and their uninhibited use of UPPERCASE letters to make their wretched points.

Now I realize that they're merely attempting to RECAPTURE the uppercase letters that the illegitimate RUNNING DOGS of the governmental co-conspirators USURPED back in the '30s in the course of establishing SOCIAL SECURITY.

Works for ME!!!!!

If Dr Dino is claiming not to be a U.S citizen, doesn't that make him an illegal alien? Instead of the IRS, maybe the INS should follow up on him. Not terribly sure where they would deport him to though.

— Sheikh_Mahandi

Steviepinhead concludes: "subornation of false muster" would then be an attempt to inform the judge---if any such claim or plea actually existed---that the person hauled into court was not actually a subject or servant of the governmental body in question, but was instead a poor misbegotten freeman who had improperly been subjected to a false conscription into said government's service.

Bruce Thompson:

Wikipedia and the SSS website indicate that the Selective Service has existed since 1917, but draft registration has not been a requirement for all of that time. For example the current registration requirement has only been in place since 1980, having been suspended when the Vietnam draft ended in 1973. Kent Hovind was born in 1953 according to Wikipedia, and if I'm reading the Wikipedia entry right the draft (not just registration, the actual draft) was active through the 50s and 60s. However I'd say we'd need a more solid source to determine the actual periods that registration was required, and even beyond that further questions linger-- for example, is it possible Hovind was born in a period that would require him to register for the Selective Service, but he did not in fact register? And more importantly, when or if Kent Hovind registered with the Selective Service system, did he spell his name in CAPITAL LETTERS?

How old is Dr. Dino? Does he fall into that window where one was not required to register for selective service?

Has Kent Hovind ever used a credit card issued to KENT HOVIND to buy stuff? Had he done so, would that, from a moral perspective, be equivalent to some sort of ID fraud? (Disambiguation: "identity" fraud).

If born in 1953, then most assuredly required to register for the draft within some number of days of turning 18.

OTOH, there was a court decision during the Vietnam era (I don't know if it was eventually overturned) to the effect that the registration law had a statute of limitations just like the other laws.

I expect the trial outcome to be substantiation of false bluster.

steve_h - guilty as charged:

http://205.152.130.14/MyImages/2001887555.pdf

Oops... this ^^^^^^^^^ (my last post) was supposed to show Bruce, Coin, Steve et al that - Kent E Hovind has provably claimed to be KENT E HOVIND.

(Link is a mortage given by KENT E HOVIND in 2001, and signed Kent E. Hovind.)

Also, it looks like he's still the owner of record of some land.
(I could be wrong - not enough time or care to do a thorough search) Which would give lie to his "owns no property" schtick.

Fruitful searching:
http://205.152.130.14/or_1a.asp

Good find, Neil, but ALAS AND ALACK that clever [urgh, retch] Kent has outfoxed the gummint yet again--neither his actual signature nor the recitation of his name in the notary's acknowledgement of his signature are in the requisite ALL CAPS.

Thus, tricky "Kent Hovind" has once again foiled the unremitting efforts of the black-helicopter-people to get him to acknowledge their overlordship over "KENT HOVIND."

And, of course, he's already got his not-so-secret identity prepared: the black-helicopter-people may succeed in sending KENT HOVIND a/k/a Kent Hovind up the river to party with the Dirty White Boyz, but Dr. Dino--citizen of Heaven--shall ne'er be RECORNSTRUCTED [extra "R" intentional].

And, WHAT O WHAT could that mysterious "E." stand for: Elasmologick? Emptyoneuronz? Edenornuttin?

Surely not Elmo!?! I refuse to believe that anyone named after a Sesame Street character could go THIS FAR ASTRAY...!!!

Maybe he was trying to plead that this was a Super Nation for False Bluster?

Re "Kent Hovind was born in 1953 according to Wikipedia,"

Well, those born in 1954 had to register, so I'd assume those one year older would have as well.

Henry

This is presumably an attempt at a joke, but it ain't funny.

— Dale

Agreed. It would be cynical to suggest that A.C. is a creationist troll trying to discredit our side, but I'll do it anyway.

— Steve Harrynuk

I find the parallels to the downfall of Al Capone most fitting. Capone was ultimately brought down on tax evasion charges when no other technique would work. Although Al Capone probably deserves a lot more credit that Hovind does.

Steviepinhead, surely Kent E Hovind wouldn't have borne false witness when he signed his name to KENT E HOVIND'S mortgage?

Because Kenny is a Good Christian, and would never say something he knew to be untrue.

So perhaps there's a whole other layer to this that we mere mortals don't understand, and when he explains this all in trial the judge will come to understand, it will spare him from jail and make him a hero of freedom loving patriots.

But I wonder why both of you don't also reply to every other sad attempts at jokes (all of them) and tell them they're not funny either.

I'm not a creationist. I'm not even christian.

The IRS loves to make examples of celebrities; Richard Hatch got 51 months in prison for not reporting his million dollar prize on "Survivor" as income.

You can't just claim laws don't apply to you because you consider yourself a citizen of somewhere else, can you?

Presumably because they don't advocate murder.

You're apparently also not very bright.

You can't just claim laws don't apply to you because you consider yourself a citizen of somewhere else, can you?

Or are you advocating that people in the White House should start living it up?

uh, you mean they haven't been? from before Kennedy's time even, all the way to the current one. In fact, a little more seriousness and a little less flippancy would be nice for a change.

So, according to his logic, his post is advocating the White House should break even more laws.

So it may seem to a moronic troll.

A (belated) reply to Steve:
No, I'm sorry if I misled anyone...I jest.
The first time I saw Hovind speak, I was completely appalled by his nonsense. At a certain point either the powder-puff interviewer or Hovind himself used the term "Dr. Dino". At this point I turned purple (mauve perhaps) and sputtered "Doctor!, Doctor Dino? More like Reverend B__________! (bovine scatological term redacted in keeping with the civil tone of TPT). Thus we have referred to him ever after. It just slipped out, I apologize. He is no Reverend, but, in spite of the diploma I assume he has, he is no doctor either.

The first time I saw Hovind speak, I was completely appalled by his nonsense.

Why don't you explain why it's within the bounds of good reasoning to say my post advocated murder

I asnwered your question of why a couple of people noted that it wasn't funny, but didn't comment on all other non-funny posts.

Geez but you're stupid.

Yes, and your answer was that my post advocated murder.

Perhaps you have a better explanation ... no, I didn't think so.

I didn't, actually, I suggested that the reason those folks didn't comment on other non-funny posts is because those posts don't advocate murder.

They objected to your post because it suggested shooting Hovind, and they felt that reflected badly on us. So go argue with them.

And then call up the White House and say the same thing about GWB and then explain that you weren't serious. Or explain that to TSA while chatting about hijacking the plane you're about to board.

Cretin.

You're definitely not reflecting well on the rest of us with your name calling.

That doesn't make you any less of a moron or your arguments any less moronic.

You're definitely not reflecting well on the rest of us with your name calling.

That doesn't make you any less of a moron or your arguments any less moronic.

Whatever, troll.

Whatever, troll.

OK, time to abandon this thread and let AC and PG duke it out....

Yeah, thanks for turning an interesting thread to crap, guys. Again.

"He started it!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"

Grow up.

"He started it!"

Yeah, thanks for turning an interesting thread to crap, guys. Again. "He started it!" "Did not!" "Did too!" Grow up.

Another topic relating to Dr Dino's troubles is the disposition of his employees, whose salary he reportedly paid in cash. Those bright eyed bushy tailed youngsters will have to pay taxes on their income unless they paid quarterly taxes. Dr Dino's errors led those people astray. I wonder if some generous members of a local congregation will come to their rescue?

Sponsored by the committee to save the thread

Delta Pi Gamma (Scientia et Fermentum)

Dr Dino's errors led those people astray.

When pressed by Davis, Hovind said he was entering a not guilty plea "under duress."

Perhaps the judge was waving a stuffed panda with a sign that said "Contempt of Court Happens!" and H. got the hint! Oh, the stuff that doesn't show up on the transcripts!

Perhaps the judge was waving a stuffed panda with a sign that said "Contempt of Court Happens!" and H. got the hint!

"Not in God's court!"

Yes, you're probably right. I'm not allowed to practice there anymore. (The clerk's kept complaining that I smelled of brimstone and gin.)

I'll assume this thread hasn't been completely derailed. I've just browsed the above-linked kent-hovind.com site and learned that Kent had once filed bankruptcy. This one fact ends the "jurisdictional" charade. He once petitioned the Federal government for protection under the U.S. bankruptcy laws with a filing in the US District Court where he lived. I wonder if he used ALL CAPS? Meanwhile, how does he qualify for a (free) public defender?

I think AC's original point was that for someone who never pays taxes (our Kent), it doesn't seem quite right that he's sucking up government services like public defenders and jail space. If really he had the courage of his convinctions, he'd be his own lawyer.

But as much as his Public Defender must be suffering, it's still worth it to contemplate Kent making license plates for a couple years.

Is Kent out on bail now or is he actually behind bars at the moment?

Look, I've been reading this thread and when I saw the comment it seemed to me that you weren't trying to be funny - just going off the deep end. I don't know about "advocating murder," but it was certainly a sort of "I would like to see him murdered" sort of thing.

Just take your licks, acknowledge that you were being a dickhead and a few people have called you out for it, and move on. You're not doing yourself any favours by dragging it out.

I don't know about "advocating murder," but it was certainly a sort of "I would like to see him murdered" sort of thing.

Just take your licks, acknowledge that you were being a dickhead and a few people have called you out for it, and move on. You're not doing yourself any favours by dragging it out.

I'll certainly grant that the latter is more accurate than the former. Aside from AC's ridiculous and irrelevant quibbles about whether one can advocate something while not serious, I simply gave the obvious factual answer to his question about why people took exception to his post and not other non-funny posts --- because his post referred to murdering Hovind and those other posts didn't. I never even passed judgment on his statement --- only on his failure to recognize that obvious fact.

I think AC's original point was that for someone who never pays taxes (our Kent), it doesn't seem quite right that he's sucking up government services like public defenders and jail space.

I never denied I was being a dickhead.

I think AC's original point was that for someone who never pays taxes (our Kent), it doesn't seem quite right that he's sucking up government services like public defenders and jail space.

Popper, you seem to spend more time insulting people to their faces than anyone else who posts here. Have you noticed that since you started your routine on this thread, you've completely derailed it? This is not the first time you've done this.

In your position, I would ask myself why I use PT as such an outlet for hostility. It's getting tedious.

Remember, Popper wannabe, leave the act of taking things out of context and proportion to the fundies.

Popper, you seem to spend more time insulting people to their faces than anyone else who posts here. Have you noticed that since you started your routine on this thread, you've completely derailed it?

And you continue to be.

What I've noticed is that your comment is about me and nothing else, and thus utterly irrelevant.

It also isn't accurate.

No one said otherwise. Some people simply objected to anyone on "our side" writing "So he should just be shot and dumped somewhere. How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?" And calling that advocating murder is not a "misrepresentation".

which all your blather since has been in reaction to ... and evidence of.

AC, PG, both of you, take it outside. Don't make me come over there...

You seem to enjoy the "easy targets". Maybe you can suggest a list of unflattering names and admit to being all of them. Would that help you resolve your anger?

You seem to enjoy the "easy targets". Maybe you can suggest a list of unflattering names and I will admit to being all of them. Would that help you resolve your anger?

You get to decide what's 'relevant' here?

you should know what it looks like to everyone else

AC, PG, both of you, take it outside. Don't make me come over there...

No, I know what it looks like you, you megalomaniac.

Your belligerent alpha-male routine sank that 'bad religion' thread, too.

No, I know what it looks like you, you megalomaniac.

I tried to help by pointing out to Norm that he has misinterpreted and misjudged her, and I was somewhat successful.

Popper's ghost: how old are you?

I'm quite young. If you are also quite young, I can certainly help you through your teenage years.

We wouldn't want you to retain your anger into adulthood and become like Kent Hovind.

Yup, *that* proves me wrong.

"I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! THAT MEANS MY BEHAVIOR IS ALWAYS JUSTIFIED!!!"

Well, I hope you confine this shtick to here and don't act this way in your real life.

I'm not always right. But certainly each of us always has justifications for our behavior. You no doubt have justifications for your capitalized strawman.

It's too bad that Anonymous_Coward and John Wilczek derailed this thread by making it all about me. As that's a subject that I'm already quite familiar with, but I doubt is of interest to others, I'll now bow out of the conversation.

This thread illustrates how blogging is different than real-life.

Colloquially calling for someone's death doesn't even raise an eye-brow in real-life, whereas insulting people generally results in violence.

It's too bad that Anonymous_Coward and John Wilczek derailed this thread by making it all about me. As that's a subject that I'm already quite familiar with, but I doubt is of interest to others, I'll now bow out of the conversation.

Hovind hardly needs to be shot of course, but I like the idea of dumping - perhaps on a tiny desert isle, where he can drink a stash of rum and contemplate the local wildlife's adaptations. ;)

Hovind hardly needs to be shot of course, but I like the idea of dumping - perhaps on a tiny desert isle, where he can drink a stash of rum and contemplate the local wildlife's adaptations. ;)

Wow, this thread turned sour quickly.

I think offering Hovind deportation to heaven is amusing.

Discussing how it is more cost efficient to buy a gun and shoot him rather than having the tax payer pay for lethal injection, is just bad taste.

Tax exemption is a privilege not a right. The IRS should have revoked it entirely when there where first signs Hovind was abusing it.

In fact I think tax exempt status should be revoked from any church / institution promoting creating science. There is a precedent for this in that churches have lost tax exemption for opposing the public good, specifically for promoting racism and segregation after segregation had been outlawed. Real science is important for the public good, and so called creation "science" is a direct attack on real science. While it is clearly protected under free speech and freedom of religion (and absolutely should be) it should be considered in opposition to the public good, and as such grounds for losing tax exempt status. We should not be indirectly subsidizing creationism.

From Neil's link to the Escampia County Florida Official Records search I found an affidavit filed 8/10/2005 with two interesting attachements:

- His ordination certificate which lists him as "KENT E. HOVIND" (yes, in all caps!) and

- His list of speaking engagements in which most of the time he is named as "Dr. Kent Hovind," but sometimes as "Eric Hovind." (E stands for "Eric"? But why would he speak under his middle name?)

In fact I think tax exempt status should be revoked from any church / institution promoting creating science.

Tax exemption is a privilege not a right. The IRS should have revoked it entirely when there where first signs Hovind was abusing it.

What does he do with Romans 13:1-7 ??

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

What does he do with Romans 13:1-7 ??

Are the Bible verses you quoted verbatim from the King James Version? Since Hovind is part of the group that believes King James is the most accurate english translation. Maybe the Olde English slipped right past him, so he didn't pay much attention to those verses.

— Anonymous_Coward

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

A few months ago I read an essay in a journal on legal tactics used by extreme seperatists, that is mountian men and such. Generally it incuded stuff such as this, they'd claim to not be legal citizens of the United States, instead claiming to be "natural citizens" or "sojourners"

I've never personally seen the language "subornation of false muster" but If I had to guess I'd say it's very much the same sort of tactic. He's alleging that he's being forced into the legal status of a "legal citizen of the United States against his will."

Keep in mind Kent Hovind previously has attempted to avoid income taxes by declaring himself to not be a citizen of the United States and attempted to default on debts by filing a spurious legal document that revoked any and all previous signatures on documents he'd signed"

I think this is very much in the same sort of behaivor.

Really, isn't the time to harbour ridiculous notions of independence/separation and rebellion only during the mid-teen years?

Notions of "small government" aside, it really just becomes the "spoilt brat" syndrome.

I know it's not a valid defence, but so what if he's a citizen of Heaven, the US, or Ulan Bator?

The offense was commited in Florida, ergo, Florida has jurisdiction.

(On the other hand, according to international treaty, as an arrested alien Hovind should be allowed access to Heavens' embassy.)

Re "according to international treaty [...] Heavens' embassy.)"

Er, is Heaven a signatory to any international treaties? Also, wouldn't that have to be an interdimensional treaty anyway? ;)

Henry

Is all this paranoia against Kent Hovind because people earn alot by believing in and supporting evolution??

Anonymous_Coward wrote: Why should Hovind get any fair trial in court? He didn't pay his taxes. He should not get the benefits of a taxpayer funded legal system. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded prison. He also should not get the benefit of a taxpayer funded lethal injection. So he should just be shot and dumped somewhere. How much does bullets and guns cost at Walmart?

People have a duty to government.

There is another connection among the names mentioned here recently: Kent Hovind, Glen Stoll, and Michael Didier.

Glen Stoll, who seems to be in the Fed's sights, heads the "Remedies at Law" outfit in WA State, as already noted. Stoll has served as "legal counsel" for Hovind in the latter's tax troubles in FL. Michael Didier, recently out of the Pierce Co, WA jail (on burglary and violation of restraining order charges), works with Glen Stoll, and has helped promote various "Remedies at Law" programs as well as "ministerial trusts" and other tax evasion schemes promoted by the "Embassy of Heaven" outfit. There is much overlap between "Remedies" and "Embassy," and Kent Hovind of Pensacola is aligned with these same stars.

It's a thicket in there.

It reminds me of when Jim Garrison, DA of New Orleans started disputing the findings of the Warren Commission. He started getting a lot of attention from the feds, especially the IRS, and was eventually ruined. Hovind has been a proponent of government involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing.

It reminds me of when Jim Garrison, DA of New Orleans started disputing the findings of the Warren Commission on Kennedy's assassination. He started getting a lot of attention from the feds, especially the IRS, and was eventually ruined. Hovind has been a proponent of government involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing.

> ...the rumor was the officers would take them as
> souveniers.

While the state might have the right to seize the plates the officers taking them as souvenirs is theft.

Is all this paranoia against Kent Hovind because people earn alot by believing in and supporting evolution??

Is all this because Hovind hits the nail against the Evolutionary theory?

Those same people paid probably around 400 billion dollars looking for WMDs...

Where did we leave off last time? buy cialis?http://digbig.com/4nrwy#cialis

All I have to say is Executive Order 11110

Oneiros?