Evolution versus "Intelligent Design"

Exactly what was the evolutionary pressure which made it so vital for the Crucian Carp to be able to survive in anoxic environments? How is that useful to its particular evolutionary niche, at least any more so than any other fish?

Re "the exotic ability to produce ethanol through a metabolic pathway that is supported by the largest glycogen store of any vertebrate."

So, it survives lack of oxygen by fermenting itself? ROFL

Henry

hmm. i wonder just how efficient this particular pathway is.

more efficient that extracting ethanol from corn, perhaps?

farming goldfish for the future.

Exactly what was the evolutionary pressure which made it so vital for the Crucian Carp to be able to survive in anoxic environments? How is that useful to its particular evolutionary niche, at least any more so than any other fish?

The Anoxic environment.

I recall a line from Jurassic Park: "Life will find a way..."

This means that life, on this and other planets, need not strictly conform to our expectations and pre-conceived notions.

In many areas that experience periodic large-scale flooding, for example the amazon basin, the retreating water can leave fish stranded in pools that quickly become stagnant and anoxic.

In fact, many fish species in these areas have evolved responses to anoxic conditions that revolve around breathing air.

anoxic conditions also exist in many large lakes or bodies of water with poor circulation, very deep areas, or no overturn. Titicaca and the Black Sea come to mind.

anoxic conditions can also be seasonal; tied to the reproductive cycles of certain algae (yes, algae use oxygen at night), and many other things.

It's not the anoxic conditions that are rare, it's the specific metabolic response of this fish that is quite unusual.

I see, thanks.

... as to a guess as to competing selective pressures that might favor "holding your breath" over air-breathing, I would think this would be quite heavily favored in areas with lots of surface predators, like birds.

...come up to breathe and get yourself nailed by a bird.

stay down, and you don't get munched.

in areas where air-breathers predominate, I would expect lots of cover, like the heavily forested and numerous pools in the amazon basin.

If pool are relatively isolated and open... well you get the idea.

The anaerobic production of ethanol in the carp could then be a deterrent to predation similar to poison arrow frogs, monarch butterflies etc. One fully ethanolized carp come to the surface, gets ingested by a bird, bad things happen to the bird (busted for flying while intoxicated?) and bird stays away from other carp.

OTOH, the bird might like the effects of ingesting the carp and...

One fully ethanolized carp come to the surface

sorry, I'm being deliberately "dry"

heh.

What makes you think evolution created this carp?

-YHWH

Our educations in science, that's what.

On another note, anyone have a clue what's up with EvoWiki?

"the bird might like the effects of ingesting the carp"

I guess reading papers such as "The adenosine receptor blocker aminophylline increases anoxic ethanol excretion in crucian carp." ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1928423&dopt=Abstract ) explains why we shouldn't be carping full throttle about the methabolical benefits of this remarkable fish. It may lead to a hangover.

Uups.. metabolical. I write like a drunkard today. ;-)

Martin Wagner says his science education is why he thinks evolution created this carp.

I take this to say: "I am learned in science therefore evolution is true."

Is that the consensus here?

Hey, YHWH. Does this sound familiar? "Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain."

ps - got any actual reasons for thinking evolution didn't? Or is just "God did it so shut up" as usual?

"I am learned in my theology so evolution is false."

On the other hand, if that happened to be a serious question, then try reading the FAQs at TalkOrigins. All the answers are there.

Comment #95666 Posted by Sir_Toejam on April 8, 2006 11:35 PM (e) In many areas that experience periodic large-scale flooding, for example the amazon basin, the retreating water can leave fish stranded in pools that quickly become stagnant and anoxic. In fact, many fish species in these areas have evolved responses to anoxic conditions that revolve around breathing air. anoxic conditions also exist in many large lakes or bodies of water with poor circulation, very deep areas, or no overturn. Titicaca and the Black Sea come to mind. anoxic conditions can also be seasonal; tied to the reproductive cycles of certain algae (yes, algae use oxygen at night), and many other things. It's not the anoxic conditions that are rare, it's the specific metabolic response of this fish that is quite unusual.

from YHWH: Martin Wagner says his science education is why he thinks evolution created this carp. I take this to say: "I am learned in science therefore evolution is true." Is that the consensus here?

YHWH -

Ironically, your username is potentially quite disrespectful to a number of religious traditions. I use it with some misgivings.

Anyway, this deserves a response -

"I take this to say: "I am learned in science therefore evolution is true.""

It's hard to know where to begin, since this indicates that, despite the decent grammar and spelling of your posts, you have no idea what science actually is.

Here's a crude layman's explanation. It's all just my own thoughts, but compatible with what I know of the "philosophy of science".

Science is what you get when you start by making certain very basic assumptions that are accepted across almost all belief systems - the physical world exists, the senses detect the physical world, other people exist and their opinions can be of value, and the type of thinking we call "logical" is of value in understanding the physical world, for example.

If you brake your car at red lights, you implicitly accept these assumptions. Of course, you could understand science even without accepting them - science describes what the physical world is like, to the best of our knowledge, under these assumptions.

Building from these implied assumptions, science uses objective observation and, where possible, experimentation, to test hypotheses about the physical world.

What our scientific educations tell us - and a formal scientific education is not really necessary for this - is that the evidence supporting the theory of evolution as the explanation for the diversity of cellular and post-cellular (ie viruses) life is overwhelming.

As with the rest of scientific reality, the theory of evolution, being neutral and evidence-based, can be and is accepted in the context of many religious traditions.

In the unlikely event that you want to learn something rather than indulge in narcissistic posturing (and I make this cynical statement based partly on past experience with internet creationists, and hope you will prove me wrong), this well-know web site provides some basic information about the theory of evolution.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Like any web site for the general public, it is merely a beginning for anyone with a serious interest in any aspect of biomedical science.

Additionally, their red blood cell hemoglobin, which transports oxygen, can bind oxygen to itself more strongly than in any other vertebrate.

I write this from Norway but not from the University of Oslo. The crucian carp is actually a fairly common fish in Europe and also in Asia. In Swedish (my native tongue) it even has a name of its own, "ruda" with no obvious meaning, indicating that the name is old. In other Germanic languages it is known as karusse (Norwegian and Danish) and Karrausche (German). These names are the same as the scientific name Carussia given by Linnaeus in 1758, the starting year of modern animal systematics.

Among the known feats of the crucian carp is to go hibernating in the bottom mud of shallow lakes and ponds where the water may freeze completely. It survives as long as the mud doesn't freeze.

It is not generally eaten in Western Europe, supposedly because it has too many small bones, and according to one Swedish Internet site, because its meat tastes mud. In Sweden this is also said about other carp fish which are eaten in Central and Eastern Europe.

The crucian carp is said to grow at a moderate speed. I would guess it has to use a lot of energy to keep up its anoxic survival kit.

Semi-related.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190906,00.html

One-Eyed Kitten to Be Centerpiece of Creationism Museum

One-Eyed Kitten to Be Centerpiece of Creationism Museum

— jason

Coughnylonbugcough

nylonbug

— corkscrew

I doubt that it will be a means of making ethanol more efficient than making it from corn. For one thing you have to feed the fish and it has to make glycogen. Plants make carbohydrate using solar energy. You can't get much cheaper than that.

There may be some niffty enzymes, but we really need better ones that break down cellulose and not glycogen. Once you get it down to glucose you'd have to find some means to keep the intermediates from being shunted off to other metabolic pathways to make ethanol production more efficient.

Hypoxic survival strategies in two fishes: extreme anoxia tolerance in the North European crucian carp and natural hypoxic preconditioning in a coral-reef shark.

From the conclusion:
In contrast to anoxia-tolerant turtles, the crucian carp remains active during anoxia, albeit at a reduced level. In the crucian carp, the brain electrical activity is at least maintained to a degree that allows continued activity, although some senses are temporarily tuned down. A key adaptation allowing a continued high level of glycolysis in crucian carp is the production and excretion of ethanol as the glycolytic end-product, thereby avoiding lactate self-poisoning. Like the turtle, the crucian carp shows an adenosine-mediated increase in brain blood flow, but this is sustained throughout the anoxic period and brain glycolysis is upregulated rather than downregulated. Instead of relying on reduced neuronal ion permeability during anoxia, a modulated release of GABA and adenosine may function to suppress various neural functions in the anoxic crucian carp brain. While the anoxic GABA release is much smaller and more variable in the crucian carp brain than in the turtle brain, a massive GABA release may be used by the crucian carp as a second line of defence for neurons suffering energy deficiency. By maintaining activity during anoxia, the crucian carp could be able to seek out oxygen rather than having to wait for it to arrive --- the only option for the comatose turtle.
One immediate lesson to be learnt from the hypoxia-tolerant epaulette shark is that adjustments such as an increased haematocrit, elevated blood [glucose] or a rise in brain blood flow, which other vertebrates display in response to hypoxia, are not always needed for anoxic survival. At least, the epaulette shark can do without such responses. The physiological mechanisms conferring protection in the epaulette shark must be multi-phase.

From: Design vs. Descent: A Contest of Predictions
Table 1. Ways Designers Act When Designing
(3) 'Re-use parts' over-and-over in different types of organisms (design upon a common blueprint).
Table 2. Predictions of Intelligent Design
(3) Genes and functional parts will be re-used in different unrelated organisms.29
29.For a brief discussion of this matter, see Wells, J., Icons of Evolution pg. 60 (Regnery 2000) or Icons Still Standing by Casey Luskin in the "Homology in Vertebrate Limbs" subsection.

We have 2 species of fish and 1 reptile which have mechanisms with similarities but significant physiological differences in adapting to hypoxia. In design apologetics, hypoxia was not considered environmental feature that allowed a single type of fix, rather low oxygen levels required organisms be designed with a variety of different mechanisms. Or alternatively, the design needed fixing.

Delta Pi Gamma (Scientia et Fermentum)

nylonbug

Do we have any way of knowing if the nylon bug could digest nylon before there was such a thing? I'm sure if I bring that particular mutation up in an argument they'll ask that question.

I doubt that it will be a means of making ethanol more efficient than making it from corn. For one thing you have to feed the fish and it has to make glycogen. Plants make carbohydrate using solar energy. You can't get much cheaper than that.

There may be some niffty enzymes, but we really need better ones that break down cellulose and not glycogen. Once you get it down to glucose you'd have to find some means to keep the intermediates from being shunted off to other metabolic pathways to make ethanol production more efficient.

OTOH, extracting the ethanol from the fish could be a bit messy.

literally.

You have to ferment the corn, extracting the ethanol wouldn't be much different, but it could be.

It depends on how much ethanol the fish can stand in their water. I assume that they get rid of the ethanol through their gills. The tank water would accumulate ethanol and it would be something like making wine. Once a certain ethanol level is reached the bioreactors (yeast in wine making) poop out. If you could constantly remove the ethanol you might be able to maintain constant production.

The problem with the algae scenario is that you have to keep the algae from producing oxygen. If you have to feed the fish, the game is pretty much over. Even if you fed them veggies, you have to grow and process the veggies. You might as well ferment the veggies.

The problem with the algae scenario is that you have to keep the algae from producing oxygen

you might as well ferment the veggies

Do we have any way of knowing if the nylon bug could digest nylon before there was such a thing? I'm sure if I bring that particular mutation up in an argument they'll ask that question.

from STJ: hmm. i wonder just how efficient this particular pathway is. more efficient that extracting ethanol from corn, perhaps? farming goldfish for the future.

lol.

well, being an ichthyologist that smell might just be heaven to me.

;)

There's got to be a niche market here, surely. After all there is wheat beer and fruit beer (yuk), so why not fish beer? And of course there are beer batters, so we could have self battering fish and chips.

And to top it off, when the officer asks if you have been drinking, you can honestly say no, unless of course you have been drinking like a fish!

Table 1. Ways Designers Act When Designing (3) 'Re-use parts' over-and-over in different types of organisms (design upon a common blueprint).

No, that should be Ways Mortal Designers Act When Designing.

Cars that run on filtered vegetable oil (used grease) don't smell like that. Don't know about those which actually burn the more solid components of the used grease. I'm sure the same filtering concepts could be applied to fish oil.

so why not fish beer?

so why not fish beer?

bah! that's just beer with a fish label (albeit an interesting Cichlid).

it's still "pseudo-fish beer"

;)

Re "entusiastically embracing your inner fish."

Yeah, just for the halibut...

Henry

Kip Addotta - Wet Dream It was April the 41st, being a quadruple leap year I was driving in downtown Atlantis My Barracuda was in the shop, so I was in a rented Stingray, and it was overheating So I pulled into a Shell station They said I'd blown a seal I said, "Fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of it, okay pal?" While they were doing that I walked over to a place called the oyster bar -- a real dive But I knew the owner, he used to play for the Dolphins I said, "Hi, Gil!!!" You hafta yell, he's hard of herring CHORUS: Think I had a wet dream Cruisin' through the Gulf Stream Oooh-ooh-ooh-ooh Wet dream... Gil was also down on his luck Fact is, he was barely keeping his head below water I gullied up to the sandbar He poured the usual Rusty snail, hold the grunion, shaken, not stirred With a peanut butter and jellyfish sandwich on the side -- heavy on the mako I slipped him a fin -- on porpoise I was feeling good I even dropped a sand dollar in the box for Jerry's Squids -- for the halibut Well, the place was crowded We were packed in like sardines They were all there to listen to the big band sounds of Tommy Dorsal -- what sole Tommy was rockin' the place with a very popular tuna -- "Salmon Chanted Evening" And the stage was surrounded by screaming groupers Probably there to see the bass player One of them was this cute little yellowtail And she's giving ME the eye So I figure, this is my chance for a little fun You know -- a piece of Pisces But she said things I just couldn't fathom She was too deep, and seemed to be under a lot of pressure Boy, could she drink She drank like a... she drank A LOT... I said, "What's your sign?" She said, "Aquarium" I said, "GREAT!!! Let's get tanked!" CHORUS I invited her up to my place for a little midnight bait I said, "C'mon baby, it'll only take a few minnows" She threw me that same old line "Not tonight -- I got a haddock" And she wasn't kiddin' either, 'cuz in came the biggest, meanest looking haddock I'd ever seen come down the pike He was covered with mussels He came over to me, he said, "Listen shrimp -- don't you come trolling around here" What a crab This guy was steamed -- I could see the anchor in his eyes I turned to him, I said, "Abalone -- You're just being shellfish" Well, I knew it was going to be trouble, and so did Gil, 'cuz he was already on the phone to the cods The haddock hits me with a sucker punch I catch him with a left hook He eels over It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel Kelpless I said, "Forget the cods, Gil, this guy's gonna need a sturgeon" Well, the yellowtail was impressed with the way I landed her boyfriend She came over to me, she said, "Hey big boy, you're really a game fish" "What's your name?" I said, "Marlin" CHORUS Well from then on, we had a whale of a time I took her to dinner I took her to dance I bought her a bouquet of flounders And then I went home with her And what did I get for my trouble? A case of the clams CHORUS CHORUS/FADE

The consensus here is that, if you study evolutionary theory well enough that you really understand what it does and doesn't predict, and if you look carefully at the biological world, you'll see that the predictions of evolutionary theory have been borne out time and time again. I'm not sure what Martin Wagner meant (of course)

Sir Toejam, as our resident ichthyologist, would you concur that the intelligent designer is Cod?

In fact, I see the hand of Cod at work in this drunken fish and Tiktaalik.

well, i dunno if the designer is a cod, but if it's any vertebrate at all, it's certainly likely to be a fish.

near 40000 spp and counting...

If the big ID ain't a fish, it certainly seems to prefer them as vertebrates go.

of course if we go by sheer numbers of spp, the big ID is an arthropod of some sort, probably a beetle However, it's harder to anthropomorphize invertebrates, so I'm gonna stick with fish.

besides, "Saving Nemo" outgrossed "Bugs Life" and "Antz" combined, and that's gotta mean something, right?

it's still "pseudo-fish beer"

I'm talking the one true Cod, not one of your run of the mill cods.

better, better.

I still would expect actual "fish beer" from either scandanavia or Japan.

they do ferment fish as a snack in some parts of scandanavia; a norwegian buddy of mine used to describe something his home town made that would make just about any american reconsider eating for a week or so.

some sort of "pickled fish" dish that consisted of herring with seasonings, left to rot in a barrel for several months, then used like peanut butter.

bonus points if somebody can remember the name of this delicious dish.

mmmm mmmm good.

ahh, i think i am confusing the swedish dish Surströmming with the norwegian one i was thinking of, which is actually made from trout:

Raake Orret

details here:

http://www.weird-food.com/weird-food-fish.html

That doesn't sound like lutefisk - all the details are wrong, at least according to what I learned from college (there was a large Swedish community, including a community college that took pride in the Swedish origins). But it might be a regional difference.

But it might be a regional difference.

Ah, that makes sense (Raake Orret). Being allergic to fish, I only learned the names so I didn't accidentally order it in a restaurant or sample it at an ethnic festival.

Being allergic to fish,

It is not difficult to understand why these special fish dishes surströmming, rakørret and lut(e)fisk (with e in Norwegian, without in Swedish). I can think of the following factors. (1) An abundant but seasonal supply of fish (2) a fairly cool climate
and (3) a limited supply of salt. Taste is something that you learn.

The process when making surströmming and rakørret is one of lactic acid fermentation. A similar process is used when making gravlax, a delicious fermented salmon dish. There are several traditional unappetizing fish preservation methods in the Nordic countries which have now got out of use. I have heard of one called "rødfisk" where the preparation was so unpleasant that it was kept more or less secret.

The danger of botulism has been mentioned. It is real if one tries to do the fermentation oneself without knowing how to. Surströmming, with the worst possible smell, is bought ready-made and is always perfectly safe.

Lutefisk is of course a different story. It is dried cod soaked in lye and thoroughly rinsed in pure water. One important difference: The fermented dishes are made of fish with a high fat content while fish for drying (cod and relatives) are lean and apparently cannot be easily fermented.

One may well think that the traditional fish preservation methods have been subject to darwinian selection. Only those dishes which did not kill off their eaters survived. Intelligent design had no part in it.

The first sentence in what I just posted should be

It is not difficult to understand why these special fish dishes surströmming, rakørret and lut(e)fisk ... were developed in Scandinavia.

Sorry.

delicious fermented salmon

If it makes Sir_Toejam happier, lutfisk and surströmming aren't snacks but usually served at special festivities, just like crayfish. Large servings of vodka helps with these machismo meals. Except lutfisk, it doesn't taste much of anything and the usual sauses doesn't help me.

Of fish meals, I prefer sushi, gravlax, pickled fish or surströmming. I can't abide fishytasting cooked or fried fish, I like my fishes roe.

I'm talking the one true Cod, not one of your run of the mill cods.

The crucian carp is actually a fairly common fish in Europe and also in Asia. In Swedish (my native tongue) it even has a name of its own, "ruda" with no obvious meaning, indicating that the name is old.

Probably from the same root as Finnish "ruutana". The ability to tolerate high blood alcohol levels for the greater part of the year also points to a Finnish origin ;-)

Among the known feats of the crucian carp is to go hibernating in the bottom mud of shallow lakes and ponds where the water may freeze completely. It survives as long as the mud doesn't freeze.

I think this is the best explanation for the evolution of anoxia tolerance. It couldn't go air-sipping during the winter like those Amazonian fish.

delicious fermented salmon

(3) a limited supply of salt

I think this is the best explanation for the evolution of anoxia tolerance. It couldn't go air-sipping during the winter like those Amazonian fish.

The dead sea and titicacca don't have anything that has adapted specifically to their respective anoxic environments though do they? "Dead zones" appear in lots of places in the oceans usually due to algae blooms or other oxygen depleting events (temperature inversions and I think others) I've never heard of a creature that has adapted to any of those situations. My guess would be ice. Trapped at the bottom of a shallow pond under thick ice. Does anybody know where these little buggers developed this neat trick?

Selective pressure for the development of hypoxia tolerance would require repetitive anoxic events. Any mechanism that allows a fish to escape, swim away swim away, wouldn't experience significant anoxic selective pressure, so I don't think algal blooms or temperature inversions would qualify. Cyclic anoxic environments that trap fish would be where I would look for additional species with hypoxia tolerance. Clinal variation in hypoxia tolerance within species would be expected in freshwater species trapped in lakes subject to freezing versus ice free lakes at lower latitudes. I would expect general mechanisms that lower metabolic rates in these fish but some variation in aspects of the crucian carp specializations might be observed.

I would look at desert pupfish maybe, fish endemic to other desert environments where water supplies can be variable? Perhaps some of the cave adapted fish species have hypoxia adaptations as part of their generalized metabolic adaptations to cave environments. Lots of neat experiments present themselves.

Delta Pi Gamma (Scientia et Fermentum)

but in the desert, we get things that get air from the, er, air. Caves maybe. But carp? Where did these guys come from? Are they the members of the Rare Greenlandia Carp family?

-And, as far as the Black sea, there are a lot of reasons that that ability would be valuable. The dead zone is around 20 fathoms or so. Being able to swim below that would give you access to a lot of detritus. As far as I know (I'ts been a while since I learned about it) no fish have managed it.

but in the desert, we get things that get air from the, er, air. Caves maybe. But carp? Where did these guys come from? Are they the members of the Rare Greenlandia Carp family?

They probably originated in Asia. I don't know if anyone has done a phylogenetic study, but the distribution of related species such as goldfish and common carp seems to point that way.

So, if the overwintering theory is correct, they may have originated in some cold little pond in Northern China :)

but in the desert, we get things that get air from the, er, air. Caves maybe. But carp? Where did these guys come from? Are they the members of the Rare Greenlandia Carp family?

Being able to swim below that would give you access to a lot of detritus.

Yes, pupfish are usually found in very shallow pools, often spring fed, so the water volume isn't all that variable for the most part.

They DO have a lot of interesting features to cope with very HOT water however.

as to my mention of titicaca and the black sea...

Let me clarify that they were specifically in reference to the idea that hypoxic aquatic environments aren't rare.

However, the hypoxic zones of both mentioned bodies of water have been little studied; it wouldn't suprise me if someone did in fact find a fish species in one or the other that had some adaptation to deal with that specific type of hypoxic environment.

40000 and counting, remember?

fish NEVER suprise me anymore. They do just about anything you can possible imagine a vertebrate doing.

[start cheerleading for fish]

just for a VERY quick list, for example:

-they exhibit all forms of reprodcutive strategies known to man (oviparity, ovoviparity, viviparity - including some examples of placental development)

-all forms of sexual behavior anyone has ever imagined: monogamy, polygamy, polyandry, leks, bowers, "sneaking", and even piracy. Also both internal and external fertilization, and even protogyny and protandry (ontogentic change of sex). Heck even a form of "parasitism" in the case of deep sea anglers, where the males attach themselves to females and essentially degenerate to just a set of testes (which often sparks the joke of "that's a pretty good description of my husband/boyfriend")

- a huge range of parental behavior, from "fire and forget", to care of eggs in a nest, to actual real parental care of young (interestingly, there is some evidence to indicate parental care in the Coelocanth as well).

-just about every variety of color and shape you could possibly imagine, applied to just about any niche you could possibly imagine

-full range of feeding behaviors from herbivorous to carnivorous to parasitic, even some that literally farm their own food.

look, i could go on and on, but I hope the point is clear:

If you want to study just about any prediction regarding the expected evolution of a trait, you will probably find it in a fish somewhere.

but i guess near 500 million years of being the most ubiquitous vertebrate group on the planet will do that for ya.

[/end cheerleading for fish]

:)

What about the detritus rain? Is there such a thing as detritus rain? Does food fall from the fish sky? I don't know. Isn't science fun, it's ok to say I don't know.

And, of course, now they have TOES!

Then there's that little offshoot lineage, the lobefins, and THEIR little offshoot lineage, the tetrapods, and--skipping seeral offshoots--THEIR little offshoot lineage, the mammals, and THEIR little offshoot, the primates > apes > homonids > sapiens.

It's not so much a case of embracing our INNER fish. We ARE fish.

Ought to really be: Sir_Finrayjam!

And, of course, now they have TOES!

Wow.

Talk about some INTENSE cultural bias.

As if only Scandinavians eat fermented fish.

Hasn't anyone ever even eaten at a Vietnamese restaurant? Fish sauce, people. Tastes good. Delicate and delicious. Not strong and fishy. Has never made me reconsider eating. I've heard that the preparation involves intense-smelling stages, but the final product is smooth and subtle.

Very similar to the ancient Roman staple "garum" (a sauce made from fermented fish). Probably similar to the Vietnamese sauce, at least in the sense of NOT tasting the way rotten fish smells.

No doubt there are many other such products in the world.

As for this anoxia-surviving fish, you can't cook it - that will cause the ethanol to vaporize.

You have to serve it as sushi!

Hasn't anyone ever even eaten at a Vietnamese restaurant? Fish sauce, people.

So if we built fish holding tanks into our vehicles and used them to raise these little ethanol producers and could then extract that ethanol to run our engines would that count as the legendary car that runs on water? If so should we expect the big oil companies to search out and make these little fishies extinct?

Seriously this has been an excellent thread, lots of good ideas and explanations and good fun too.

so why not fish beer?

damn! i think you're on to something there AJF!

unfortunately, wouldn't triggering the ethanol pathway involve holding your breath for a bit longer than most would like?

hmm, otoh, i suppose you could generate lactic acid fermentation if you excercise sufficiently enough to create relatively anoxic conditions in muscle mass.

but then that would kinda put a damper on a good drunk.

hmm, requires further thought...

That's the thing about evolution though. We evolved to the point where we can scrounge for enough change to get a good drunk. Really pretty easy from an evolutionary point of view.

If we identify the gene responsible, couldn't we just splice it into the human genome

Finally, only foreigners like beer at body temperature.

As if only Scandinavians eat fermented fish. Hasn't anyone ever even eaten at a Vietnamese restaurant? Fish sauce, people.

hmm, I guess we would have to design a more efficient evaporative cooling system?

maybe an internal system of storage vats just under the skin, with a counter-current heat exchange system built with a rete mirabila of blood vessels just above it?

I was thinking something a bit more streamlined :P

R. M.
Re "Only those dishes which did not kill off their eaters survived."
The irony there is it's the ones that keep getting eaten that survive - the ones that don't keep being eaten die out. LOL

Bruce,
Re "Does food fall from the fish sky?"
It does if they're in an aquarium. ;)

Steviepinhead,
Re "We ARE fish."
Uh oh, does that mean eating a fish sandwich would make one a cannibal? Good thing the cafeteria was out of the fish filets today, then. :)

Henry

Regarding that one-eyed kitten to be displayed at the creationist museum as evidence that mutations can only be negative, that kitten has a birth defect called cyclopia:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/cyclopes.asp

What's stupid is that cyclopia isn't even caused by a genetic mutation. It's a birth defect caused by the mother's ingesting certain toxins during pregnancy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopia

This bozo is putting it on display as an example of a harmful mutation! He is either ignorant or dishonest.

This bozo is putting it on display as an example of a harmful mutation! He is either ignorant or dishonest.

About "gravlax" which I called a delicious fermented salmon dish, something some of you Americans thought was funny:

Eating gravlax requires about the same amount of bravery as eating yoghurt, a fermented dish which is known and eaten also in the United States.

Going outside Scandinavia, is there anyone who knows of "fermented black beans" used in some Cantonese food. They are not for beginners. I have got some from my Hong Kong-born daughter-in-law. A problem if you want to try them is that they are cheap and are sold in packages of about 1 kg. About a table-spoon is enough each time.

It's interesting to see different fish meals from diverse cultures.

However, I don't understand the persisting insistence to call fermented fish "rotted". If there are any rotten food products out there, I probably wouldn't want to eat them.

BTW, surströmming fermentation gives a distinct smell and taste, but while the smell is quite bad the taste is nice and spicy. The vodka is good for dissociating smell and taste, or to brave the first chew for the uninitiated.

Just be careful to open the can under water. Especially since the can is pressurised after the fermentation, so you wouldn't want to get smelly fish juice over your clothes. That *is* a rotten experience. :-)

Oh, I forgot to relate my favorite anecdote about surströmming!

When a student, I come in contact with US students doing summer schools here. One in that group related the mistake of buying a surströmming can by relying on the fish depicted on the label like any tuna can.

He claimed he wasn't deterred by the smell but proceeded to fry them in a pan. Fermented fish has much of the structural integrity removed. His fishes shrunk quickly to mere residues...

Deeply buried ocean sediments may house populations of tiny organisms that have extremely low maintenance energy needs and population turnover rates of anywhere from 200 to 2,000 years, according to an international team of researchers. ...

"Fermented black beans" are basically what give soy sauce its flavor. Soy sauce is sort of just fermented black-bean juice (with some other stuff added). Nothing gross about them!

regarding fermented fish sauce(s)- my favorite is that most exotic of fermented fish sauces- Worcestershire-yup good ol' Lea and Perrin's - main ingredient - fermented anchovies!

Well, this seems to be the preserved fish thread, so perhaps someone here will be familiar with what I'm asking about.

When I was in Iceland some 25 years ago, I was introduced to a snack which was a kind of dried fish, pale in color, and somewhat fishy-smelling, but not obnoxiously so. When I'd break pieces off, it was kind of a cross between flaky and fibrous. I haven't thought about it since then, and I've long since forgotten the name my host taught me for it.

Do Icelanders eat lutefisk, and is that what this description sounds like, or is this not enough information to go on?

Thanks!

not lutefisk, but that's as far as i could go to help you on that one.

try the link to the "fishy foods" i posted earlier. it might be there.

When I was in Iceland some 25 years ago, I was introduced to a snack which was a kind of dried fish, pale in color, and somewhat fishy-smelling, but not obnoxiously so. When I'd break pieces off, it was kind of a cross between flaky and fibrous. I haven't thought about it since then, and I've long since forgotten the name my host taught me for it.

Dry fish is eaten as a snack also in Northern Norway. I think it is just dried cod - the raw material for making lutefisk - which has been cut and probably hammered to make it softer.

I have tried both the Norwegian and the Icelandic variety but it was many years ago. As far as I remember the taste was the same. When you start chewing it feels like cardboard but it is easy to become addicted.

But how many of those fish dishes taste like chicken?

I've managed to save up roughly $24238 in my bank account, but I'm not sure if I should buy a house or not. Do you think the market is stable or do you think that home prices will decrease by a lot?