Laonastes/ Diatomys/ kha-nyou/ rat-squirrel

This thing needs a better name. How would you like to go through life being named for two other species?

Let's have some suggestions for names.

Bruce or if your Chinese ...dinner :)

Losangelestes Fafarmanus IDioticus, commonly known as the "Larry Rat." Never mind, that would be redundant.

This creature can't possibly be related to Larry Farfromaman: it's too cute.

Creationist theories about how the world was made are to be debated in GCSE science lessons in mainstream secondary schools in England. ... Critics say the matter should only be discussed in R.E. because there is a danger of elevating religious theories to the status of scientific ones. The government insists creationism is not being taught as a subject. ...

I think the Intelligent Designer decided that Laotians were missing out on a tasty treat for too long.

"R.E" stands for Religious Education. Not exactly sure what GCSE stands for, I'm sure a Brit will help us out. It's a national standard curriculum for secondary education, apparently.

I didn't know either and googled. This is what I found:

GCSE stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education.
It is explained here.

The UK school system is as follows:

1) Primary school from age 5 to 11 - no important exams

2) Secondary school from 11 to 16, culminating in GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondary Education). Most people take about 8 GCSEs iirc

3) Sixth form or college from 16 to 18, culminating in A-levels (Advanced Levels). Most people take about 4 A-levels.

4) University from 18 to whenever.

Just to shake things up, recently they've introduced a new set of exams at age 17, called A/S levels (Advanced Subsidiary Levels). Two A/S levels = one A-level. It's all a bit confusing and generally results in kids being horribly over-examined.

I didn't know either and googled.

— rolf

I notice that this species isn't called a "living fossil" as creationist orginisations usually like to put it. I'm positive over the next few days AIG will have an article on their website about this find presenting a problem for evolutionists. Have a look at their views on the Jurassic beaver story which was covered here a week or so ago.

RE. GCSE. When I was a teenager in the 1970's they were called GCE's then and there was no such thing as AS levels just O and A levels. A pass at O level then was a grade between 1-6 with 7,8 and U (ungraded) being fails. A level grades were A,B,C, O and F with A,B, and C being passes and F a fail. An O grade, while not being a pass was still useful because some third level courses required a subject to be studied to A level but did not necessarily ask for a pass. How times have changed.

I think my geology teacher would have been horrified, if he where still alive, at the thought of "flood geology" even being discussed in class. I'm sure he would have refused.

Offering names, k.e.suggests: Bruce or if your Chinese ...dinner :)

Bruce or if your Chinese ...dinner :)

— k.e.

The name of this topic doesn't fit too well in the "Recent Comments" box on the main page - that long string of nonblank characters causes it to run outside the box.

Re "or if your Chinese ...dinner"

Does it taste like chicken? :)

From comment 85796: " I'm positive over the next few days AIG will have an article on their website about this find"

These guys beat them to it

http://creationsafaris.com/crev200603.htm

I'm positive over the next few days AIG will have an article on their website about this find presenting a problem for evolutionists. Have a look at their views on the Jurassic beaver story which was covered here a week or so ago.

how about "scandentoid" (looks like a tree shrew)?

A couple of points about the journalism reporting this:

1. The species was not found in the fossil record 11 million years ago, other members of the "family" were. "Family" is a Linnean rank that has absolutely no objective significance whatsoever. It just means that the evolutionary group of which this species is a member had relatively close sister taxa that some biologist or paleontologist found similar enough to group that way.

2. Even if the same "species" were identified as being around 11 million years ago as the one found today, that doesn't make it the same species. Let me explain. There is a problem identifying reproductively isolated species from fossil taxa because the biological properties that make one population isolated from another do not fossilise. It may very well be that the fossil form was a distinct biological species even if the two are similar enough to call the same "paleospecies" or "chronospecies". Form is one indicator, but not a sufficiently rich one, to identify actual isolated reproductive pools.

Off to curmudgeon about something else now...

Off to curmudgeon about something else now...

Sc2 Life processes and living things Knowledge, skills and understanding Variation, inheritance and evolution 4) Students should be taught: Evolution 1. that the fossil record is evidence for evolution 2. how variation and selection may lead to evolution or to extinction.

More on this development in the UK from the Guardian:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcses/story/0,,1728236,00.html

deas and evidence in science 1) Students should be taught: 1. how scientific ideas are presented, evaluated and disseminated [for example, by publication, review by other scientists]Click to view notes 2. how scientific controversies can arise from different ways of interpreting empirical evidence [for example, Darwin's theory of evolution] 3. ways in which scientific work may be affected by the contexts in which it takes place [for example, social, historical, moral, spiritual], and how these contexts may affect whether or not ideas are accepted 4. to consider the power and limitations of science in addressing industrial, social and environmental questions, including the kinds of questions science can and cannot answer, uncertainties in scientific knowledge, and the ethical issues involved.

Re John's comment 85874. I was going to say something similar but not having done biology I decided to refrain from doing so.

I've read a number of articles that basically say the same thing John i.e. that the so called term "living fossil",that creationists often use to describe a discovery such as this, is really a misleading one. For instance the fossilised coelacanths (another example) were an entirely different species to the ones that were discovered alive a few decades ago. I wonder how many creationist followers realise this ?

Dean,
The Guardian piece you link to and the coverage of this story in the media in general has been pretty useless. It seems to boil down to people being unable to tell the difference between teaching Creationism and teaching history of science.

Here is the actual syllabus that sparked the story
http://www.gcse-science.com/file_downloads/pgd_files_245_10.pdf

The relevant bits are pp.34-35. It covers things like debunking Lamarckism and examining the reception Darwin got at the time. All very handy stuff. The exam board itself is very clear:

Creationism and 'intelligent design' are not regarded by OCR as scientific theories. They are beliefs that do not lie within scientific understanding.

http://www.ocr.org.uk/OCR/WebSite/docroot/newsupdates/newslist/detail.jsp?server=PRODUKTION&site=OCR&oid=27616"

I'm a bit concerned that people are going off half-cock over this and that it may lead to them being taken less seriously when they address real threats like the Vardy Schools.

On 27th February, Jacqui Smith answered a parliamentary question tabled by MP Keith Vaz. His question was: 'To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Skills what her policy is on the teaching of creationism as a subject in schools; and if she will make a statement.' In her reply, the minister said that pupils should "be taught about "how scientific controversies can arise from different ways of interpreting empirical evidence". Also, the biblical view of creation can be taught in RE lessons, where pupils are taught to consider opposing theories and come to their own, reasoned conclusions. Therefore, although creationism and intelligent design are not part of the national curriculum, they could be covered in these contexts." Click here for her full answer. The BHA has written to DfES ministers Jacqui Smith and Lord Adonis asking whether the Government really considers "that creationism and 'intelligent design' are examples of scientific theories based on empirical evidence within the meaning of the national curriculum." The letter explains that this is the BHA's specific concern in Ms Smith's written answer: "Our specific concern is your interpretation of the phrase 'how scientific controversies can arise from different ways of interpreting empirical evidence' in the national curriculum programme of study for science at key stage 4. You say that creationism and 'intelligent design' "could be covered in these contexts. "From discussions with science teachers, the BHA had understood that the controversies covered under this section over evolution specifically were only those with some claim to being genuinely scientific, such as the discredited Lamarckian theory. We are concerned, therefore, to hear the government endorsing the view of religious extremists that, firstly, a scientific controversy to do with creationism actually exists, and secondly that it could be taught in a state-funded school." For the full letter click here Andrew Copson, education officer at the BHA said, "It seems inconceivable that the government should give even tacit approval to the teaching of creationism as a scientific theory. That they should approve its teaching within the national curriculum for science is outrageous."

Flitcraft - I've read through the syllabus you mentioned and it seems fine to me.

In fact it's better than the old one which specifically mentions creationism (as a historical position)

I'm confused to see how this story got started - and the OCR have given a pretty clear clarification:

OCR rejection of Creationism and Intelligent Design

Dean - It seems to have broken in the Murdoch press a day earlier than everywhere else: in 'The Times' and 'The Sun' of March 9th (those are the dates given for those stories on Google News). Looks like a straightforward case of bad reporting there, followed by lazy reporting as the rest of the media followed suit. They were probably trying to dig something up in the wake of the Jacqui Smith statement, and ended up manufacturing a story to fit.

My apologies to the rat-squirrel, since he has such a big chewing muscle, perhaps he should be called Chewie? Then obviously he would be the Chewbacca squirrel.

"R2, I suggest a different tactic - let the squirrel win!"

Laonastes aenigmamus, the Laotian rock rat, is the only known survivor of a morphologically distinctive family of rodents; check out the distinctive jaw. It is thought to be nocturnal, and no one knows how many of them there are. "Family" is a keyword here. As John points out, this is not the same species that existed many millions of years ago. Wiki already has it covered, along with many other species, but amazingly they missed Gracilidris pombero. Wiki also covers term like "Lazarus taxon" and "living fossil".

I've read a number of articles that basically say the same thing John i.e. that the so called term "living fossil",that creationists often use to describe a discovery such as this, is really a misleading one. For instance the fossilised coelacanths (another example) were an entirely different species to the ones that were discovered alive a few decades ago. I wonder how many creationist followers realise this ?

— Peter Henderson

Heh. I googled, too, but the first page of links led me to lots of pages that said "GCSE this!" or "GCSE that!" (lot of sites with study aids, etc) without spelling out the acronym!

Comment #85937 Posted by Flitcraft on March 11, 2006 12:46 PM (e) Dean, The Guardian piece you link to and the coverage of this story in the media in general has been pretty useless. It seems to boil down to people being unable to tell the difference between teaching Creationism and teaching history of science. Here is the actual syllabus that sparked the story http://www.gcse-science.com/file_downloads/pgd_f... The relevant bits are pp.34-35. It covers things like debunking Lamarckism and examining the reception Darwin got at the time. All very handy stuff. The exam board itself is very clear: Creationism and 'intelligent design' are not regarded by OCR as scientific theories. They are beliefs that do not lie within scientific understanding. http://www.ocr.org.uk/OCR/WebSite/docroot/newsup..." I'm a bit concerned that people are going off half-cock over this and that it may lead to them being taken less seriously when they address real threats like the Vardy Schools.

Apologies.

Posted #85996 on wrong thread, so, please ignore.

I notice that this species isn't called a "living fossil" as creationist orginisations usually like to put it. I'm positive over the next few days AIG will have an article on their website about this find presenting a problem for evolutionists.

That got me to wondering... What are creation scientists doing these days as far as field research? What kind of thing(s) are they looking for? How are they going about examining the evidences of nature to confirm or dis-confirm their theories on the mechanisms of biological diversity? Where are they conducting their research? How successful (or not) have they been? Do they publish their findings? If so, where? Who funds their research?

this is a little late in response to Gorbe. Here are the answers to his questions. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, Nowhere, They don't care, No, Nowhere, What research? I hope I've been helpful. TPFD.