The Panda's Thumb Legacy Archive — pandasthumb.net

Yet another controversy - the Intelligent Deceiver

Posted 23 November 2005 by John S. Wilkins

The eminent science journal Nature has a letter (subscription required) from Professor A. Richard Palmer of the Systematics and Evolution Group, at the University of Alberta. In it, he proposes that we teach the controversy - not only should we teach that there is an Intelligent Design hypothesis, we should also teach that there is an Intelligent Deceiver motivating the ID movement.
Individuals who understand how to debate alternative scientific hypotheses would never intentionally promote religious dogma as science. So an intelligent deceiver must be at work, guiding proponents of ID to sow confusion over valid scientific debate.
He goes on to say:
To exclude intelligent deception from debates over ID versus evolution could be considered hypocritical on both legal and moral grounds. And if proponents of ID reject the hypothesis of intelligent deception, their objections would be most interesting to hear, particularly the ones that dismiss the deceiver without imperilling the designer.
We here at the Pandas Thumb like this idea. But it doesn't go nearly far enough. If we want to teach the controversy, let us teach all of it. For example: This is the theory that every little trait, and every organism, had its own Designer. Not only does it have exactly the same philosophical and scientific basis that ID does, it is more explanatory than ID. It is also something we take particular pride in having proposed right here at The Panda's Thumb. This is the view that the Designer actually just finished doing His work yesterday, or Last Thursday, or 6000 years ago, but made it look like it happened over 4.5 billion years (for terrestrial evolution). A variation on this is the idea that while the Designer (notice how carefully we are avoiding the G-word?) had a hand in some or all of biological evolution, He (or It or They) made it look exactly as if it had happened naturally. But it takes special powers to see that it couldn't have. This scientific gem proposes that we deny that inheritance is based on chromosomes and that what happens to organisms can be inherited. It was used to great effect in the old Soviet Union (it killed millions in a famine induced by its application to agriculture). It should be amenable to the present U.S. Administration. I'm quite sure that I have left out some equally as important as ID theories that could be taught with as much profit. Do please add them to the Comments...

84 Comments

Pete Dunkelberg · 23 November 2005

For another insight into the ID, read this clear to the end.

djlactin · 23 November 2005

There's the "delusion" idea (modified in the "matrix" trilogy): it's all an illusion and we're each actually just a brain (or something) in a vat.

And of course, there is always solipsism: "it's all just my imagination".

Brian Spitzer · 23 November 2005

Two points:

1)It is something of a mantra among the ID movement that we can tell when a structure or system of parts fulfills "a purpose", and that this is a reliable sign of design. They've made something of a PR success.

Our failure has been to let them get away with not discussing the "purpose" which is evident in organisms. If this topic is pushed at all, it turns out that the "purpose" of all living systems and structures is-- to encourage the transmission of the genes that code for that system or structure. Of course, it just happens that natural selection only favors systems with this "purpose".

2) I'm especially fond of Multiple Designer Theory because it points to a serious weakness in ID that I think most lay people can intuitively understand. We design machines to do a particular job. We do not then turn around and design other machines to specifically interfere with the first machines. Some of the most ingenious "designs" in nature do precisely this.

Working at cross purposes to oneself is not a hallmark of a single intelligent designer, yet nature is constantly engaged in this. IMHO, conflicts within a species are a real can of worms for ID-- especially, for example, conflicts between mother and fetus. What a mess for ID-- but so easily explained by evolution.

Apesnake · 24 November 2005

Is there really any evidence of intelligence behind the deception? Is an intelligence agency needed to deceive the Intelligent Design movementeurs (yeah, I know its not a real word).

What if they are just irreducibly uninformed?

Wesley R. Elsberry · 24 November 2005

And of course, there is always solipsism: "it's all just my imagination".

And don't forget post-modernism: "It's all just our imagination". A social variant of solipsism at basis, it seems.

EZGoing · 24 November 2005

It was used to great effect in the old Soviet Union (it killed millions in a famine induced by its application to agriculture)
I hear this a lot about Lamarckism/Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union. Weren't their problems economic? Didn't Stalin and totalitarian brutality cause the famines? Before I get jumped on, all I'm saying is that it's simplistic to use this argument. A better one would be... well I don't know. This argument just seems prone to attack by you know who.

John Wilkins · 24 November 2005

The reliance upon vernalisation did cause famine. Economic mismanagement (over-reporting yields) also caused famine. Stalin also murdered, or rather his secret police did, millions of people. The one does not rule out the others.

Andrew Mead McClure · 24 November 2005

In Soviet Russia, you die for a wide variety of reasons!

Omphalism... A variation on this is the idea that while the Designer (notice how carefully we are avoiding the G-word?)

Man... at this point can we just drop the words "God" and "Designer" altogether and skip straight to "Demiurge"?

EZGoing · 24 November 2005

That's a good point. I wasn't familiar with the term "vernalisation" and had to google it.

God · 24 November 2005

"And don't forget post-modernism: "It's all just our imagination". A social variant of solipsism at basis, it seems."

Ahh, but some forms of postmodernism deny the possibility of genuine imagination!

Rupert Morrish · 24 November 2005

We design machines to do a particular job. We do not then turn around and design other machines to specifically interfere with the first machines.

— Brian Spitzer
I have worked on many software systems that have, over the years, had exactly such processes added to them. Particularly when an old system has been ported to a new platform, it's easier to add a whole new program to stop an undesirable behaviour than to modify the old program.

John · 24 November 2005

"It was used to great effect in the old Soviet Union (it killed millions in a famine induced by its application to agriculture)"

Not true.

Mike Walker · 24 November 2005

Don't forget the Meddling Designer (mentioned in another PT thread) - a designer who can't keep his hands to himself, even today, and thus prevents scientists from being able to trust the results of any experiment they run.

Then there's the Lazy Designer, who did some pretty good work but, let's face it, could have done a whole lot better had they put in a little more effort.

Perhaps PT should inaugurate a Pantheon of Designers as a helpful guide to confused would-be ID supporters?

Stephen Elliott · 24 November 2005

I would like to present the:
Cosmic Game; Design Hypothesis:
There are 2 Designers (or possibly design teams)trying to out compete each other. Team 1 "Kicks off" by designing something biological. Team 2 takes it's turn; options a)Design an opposing biological system or b)Cause a non-biological event to wipe out opponent's design.

After a set time there is a great weigh in and the side with the most bio-mass wins.

This hypothesis would explain.
The sudden appearance of creatures.
Lack of transitional fossils.
The germ/immune system weirdness.

I realise that I now need to come up with some experimental evidence, but before I do that lets teach it in science class.
Mass extinctions

Stephen Elliott · 24 November 2005

Bah! Should have previewed more carefully.

Mass extinctions: should be above the sentence asking for class time, and under germ/immune comment.

SteveF · 24 November 2005

There were a couple of interesting evolution related papers in the previous issue. One on protein folding and the other on the evolution of complex systems IIRC. For some reason my suscription isn't working so I can't provide the abstracts. Thought the PT might comment on at least one of them.

NelC · 24 November 2005

Working at cross purposes to oneself is not a hallmark of a single intelligent designer, yet nature is constantly engaged in this.

What if He has Multiple Personality Disorder? That might lead to Him working against Himself, without compromising His infinite intelligence. The whole Lucifer thing sounds like some kind of Tyler Durden thing. How come you never see Lucifer and the big G together, eh? Hey, Multiple Personality Disorder Designer Theory: it's got more words in it than Multiple Designer Theory, so it's got to be true! I demand equal time on Panda's Thumb! I can't be bothered to write it all up in a several thousand-word paper just now, but it should be intuitively obvious to anyone not blinkered by the dogma of MDT. Blog the controversy!

MaxOblivion · 24 November 2005

On a somewhat unrelated note, the Flying Spaggetti Monster appears in living bacteria.

Scientists at UC San Francisco have engineered bacteria to create living photographs that weigh in at 100 megapixels per square inch. The photos were created by projecting light on "biological film" -- billions of genetically engineered E. coli growing in dishes of agar, a standard jello-like growth medium for bacteria."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scienceblog/66259267/ http://www.brainblog.com/cms/scientists_engineer_bacteria_to_create_living_photographs2480

Dean Morrison · 24 November 2005

How about my "Grand Unification Theory of evolution and design"? -which goes like this:
- When organisms die their blueprints of these beta-versions (souls) are ported off to another dimension where they are stripped down by teams of parsimonious designers. The most promising kinds are then chosen (supernatural selection) and then re-assembled using old parts to create new and updated models for further testing.
Thus explaining: re-incarnation, observed design, micro- and macro-evolution, convergent evolution, re-combination, selection, similarities in DNA and organelles, deja-vu, and more besides. This theory should appeal to: deists; theists; environmentalists (recycling as a devine principle); polytheists; 'Darwinists' and Dembski-ites alike.
There is a test for this - if Behe can find an improbably complex organelle such as a flagelleum; then all he has to do is find another one like it: Hey presto!: the design has obviously been copied!
This should appeal to consensus politicians most of all - since everyone gets a bit of pie then there is no need to teach any 'controversy' - whats not to like?

Dark Matter · 24 November 2005

1)It is something of a mantra among the ID movement that we can tell when a structure or system of parts fulfills "a purpose", and that this is a reliable sign of design. They've made something of a PR success. Our failure has been to let them get away with not discussing the "purpose" which is evident in organisms. If this topic is pushed at all, it turns out that the "purpose" of all living systems and structures is--- to encourage the transmission of the genes that code for that system or structure. Of course, it just happens that natural selection only favors systems with this "purpose".

— Brian Spitzer
Yes, an effective technique, sell sell sell the stuff that makes design look good like the complement fixation pathway, hype the bacterial flagellum and ignore stuff like choleratoxin, poliovirus and the apical complex.The apicomplexa are only a source of misery for humans and anyone else who "designed" something else like them would be arrested for bioterrorism and put into a prison suitable for containing dangerous lunatics. Anyone that would know enough about bacteriology to discuss flagella would presumably know about the abundance of bacterial virulence factors as well and is therefore "purposefully" supressing their knowledge of host-parasite interactions for cultural and political influence over society. We need to end the "balanced discussion" stuff for them and ATTACK them as the con artist snake-oil salesmen they are, the same as you would attack someone who tried to sell your grandma a scientology e-meter.

Ron Okimoto · 24 November 2005

Anyone that believes in the devil, as most fundamentalists of the ID bent do, would normally have a ready answer for why "good Christians" like Bonsell and Buckingham perjured themselves in court. What is that answer? Isn't it the devil's work? What should that tell them about the ID scam? ID, the intelligent deceiver, they don't even have to change a lot of their scam literature. The guy writing the Nature letter is probably on to something that might finally hit the religiously motivated where they can't willfully ignore it without doing the devil's work.

Dark Matter · 24 November 2005

PS- But dosen't this look cool anyway despite where it came from?

Drawing of apical complex:
http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/courses/bio332/Images/apiComplex.jpg

"Look at the complexity of that thing! It had to be DESIGNED!"

steve s · 24 November 2005

"We design machines to do a particular job. We do not then turn around and design other machines to specifically interfere with the first machines."

The Army, the NSA, and some virus writers would probably disagree with you on this one.

ah_mini · 24 November 2005

Ron, that's one way of looking at it. I've seen the "devil" excuse used by a few when bad things happen (especially spats between members of church congregations).

However, there is a more realistic reason why Bonsell and Buckingham saw fit to lie through their teeth. Creationists such as these believe they are fighting a war against the evil atheistic scientists. Those scientists are agents of Satan, spreading their intellectual filth to innocent children and deceiving them out of the Christian faith and into homosexuality and drug abuse. To them, the only outcome of accepting evolution is rotting in hell for all eternity.

So, they simply believe that lying on the stand is the lesser of two evils. Kind of like lying to a Nazi in WW2 to protect the Jews hiding in your basement. God wouldn't frown on a liar if he was lying for Jesus?

Would He?

Andrew

k.e. · 24 November 2005

Dark Matter
I think you might be on to something there
Could that be.....
I might be making a jumps here .....but
....Actual ....direct photographic (well OK its not ... but could be photographic
...if you got the real photos)

Of the FSM creating itself in its own likeness right here on the 3rd rock.
..well of course ..not actually creating ..its not a photo of the factory
..but obviously it must have been created by anyone who has an IQ under 90 or is it over I'm never sure which is smarter.

...except it is only a visual representation drawn by a zoologist who was a scientist and they really know stuff
...or it could have been an artist.... boy, do those guys have imaginations
....plus they always seem to have girls hanging around them.
Maybe that's why its only in 2 dimensions and is made up of what seems like dots of ink on ....is that paper or velum?
Hey? or is it just pixels on a glass tube. Dang that translation via the internef thing ....is just such a precise and infallible translation. I'm picturing the electrons and the Nyquist or is that Nudist limit as well as the infinite wave thingy.. with zero information transfer....but how did the actual information get here if there was zero transfer. Oh and to prove my point Galileo, Big Bang, Easter Island, Einstein and other relly reealy brill. guys ..except those Easter Is. guys they really **cked up.

There must be a book in this somewhere.

You do realize people from all over the world are going to want to touch that
photo don't you?
And ask for a sign.
(ok ...I Know its not a photo but I still believe its a photo so don't argue or I'll get upset and call people I know, who know other people and throw things) The cult thickens.

The mind boggles at the pure simplicity of MY theory and I'm the ONLY person who can explain it AND I get to set the rules nah nah nah.

Joe Meert · 24 November 2005

Does this all have a familiar ring? When it was creationism, we advocated teaching all creation stories if we are to teach one. Now that it's called id, we are advocating teaching all different ID stories. Yet, ID has nothing to do with creationism.

Cheers

Joe Meert

k.e. · 24 November 2005

Simple just take out FSM and put in ID (FSM is NOT a CREATION story OK)
How dare you acuse me of callin FSM a creation story I'll stamp my feet.

JS · 24 November 2005

"ID has nothing to do with creationism." And there aren't any infidels in Baghdad, either... Man, we got to be able to make a Discovery Institute Information minister parody. Oh, wait, they've already got Lyin' Luskin... Dang, you can't even use sarcasm against creationists. Probably because most parody ID positions have already been taken by genuine IDiots.

- JS

k.e. · 24 November 2005

How did the designer found life?

found To come upon, often by accident; meet with. To come upon or discover by searching or making an effort: found the leak in the pipe. To discover or ascertain through observation, experience, or study: found a solution; find the product of two numbers; found that it didn't really matter. To perceive to be, after experience or consideration: found the gadget surprisingly useful; found the book entertaining. To experience or feel: found comfort in her smile. To recover (something lost): found her keys. To recover the use of; regain: found my voice and replied. To succeed in reaching; arrive at: The dart found its mark. To obtain or acquire by effort: found the money by economizing. To decide on and make a declaration about: The jury deliberated and found a verdict of guilty. All the jurors found him guilty. To furnish; supply. To bring (oneself) to an awareness of what one truly wishes to be and do in life. To perceive (oneself) to be in a specific place or condition: found herself at home that night; found himself drawn to the stranger. Create To cause to exist; bring into being. . To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir. To invest with an office or title; appoint. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

Pierce R. Butler · 24 November 2005

"Evolution" itself can also be deceptive: http://www.brastraps.com/evolution.htm ...

k.e. · 24 November 2005

hahahha
Reminds me of Robin Williams telling the "woman sees the doctor and asks him to numb her breasts" joke. (num, num, num, num)

Althea · 24 November 2005

I think you are all missing the most obvious answer, it's not a Flying Spaghetti Monster (which is soooo last week!). It's the Intelligent Fashion Designer (IFD). I mean, consider the stilhetto heel and merry widow corset, neither of which could have emerged from natural forces. And you know, there's just too much that is purty for it to be random chance, i.e., the rainbows and kittens.

*Z snap*

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 24 November 2005

I mean, consider the stilhetto heel and merry widow corset, neither of which could have emerged from natural forces.

Well, just to demonstrate that there is indeed NO parody of creationist/IDers that is so silly or so stupid that *someone* won't bring it up in all seriousness, I cite the case of one Michael Tong, who has over the years made the rounds of almost all the evo-cre email lists. His schtick, given and defended in all apparent seriousness, is that white women are more beautiful than anyone else, and that white women are particularly beautiful when they wear red high heel shoes (with four-inch heels -- Tong loves to cite all sorts of "studies" to estbalish this). And --- drum roll please --- since "evolution can't explain why this is", we must have been designed for it. Serious. No joke. He even claimed that Behe supported this idea. In fact, he claimed it so many times that I emailed Behe some of Tong's, uh, ideas and asked him what he thought --- Behe responded that he "didn't have time for such nonsense" and begged me not to judge IDers by the actions of "unstable people". Didn't bother Tong at all --- he just went right on claiming that Behe supported his ideas.

Jim Harrison · 24 November 2005

The designer was obviously Microsoft, hence the profusion of bugs.

Frank J · 24 November 2005

Behe responded that he "didn't have time for such nonsense" and begged me not to judge IDers by the actions of "unstable people".

— 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank
Sorry, but I judge IDers precisely because they just ignore "unstable people". If IDers ever want to be taken seriously, they are going to have to take a stand. Is Tong's (and Gish's and Ross's) science right or not? And if not, why not devote "equal time" to critiquing it? I too would like to just ignore "unstable people" like DI fellows, but America's science education is at stake.

k.e. · 24 November 2005

In the year of our Microsoft 678AR (After Resurection) ......Society is shaped by a single all-embracing political ideology. The motto of the world state is "Community, Identity, Stability." Huxley... "Brave New Word".

Andy A · 24 November 2005

What about IM (intelligent meddling) ? This may be where the IDers will go next so let's get it out in the open. Basic idea is that The Designer let everything go according to evolutionary processes but then stepped in at the very end (3Myr ago say) and fudged the human/ape ancestor genetically to produce humanity. This has all sorts of advantages - it has a veneer of acceptability because the rest of evolution is accepted, it reduces the time problem (3Myr could be rhetorically made consistent with 6000yr a lot more easily than the length of the fossil record can) and finally and most importantly it's a great source of soundbites - e.g. "N million years of evolution got the apes no further than the treetops. One touch from God and man reached the moon"... etc.

k.e. · 24 November 2005

I Think I can fit your theory in with my theory (off camera here.... shhh.. OK I'll make up some super SECRET woRDs Shhh... I'll make up some super super secret words that I'll tell nobody wink wink and you tell your nobody wink tickle OK ....wink wink now don't mention the true Truth... OK check ...go it)
....now where's that PR whiz "The Theory oF Really silly Winks" folks .

RBH · 24 November 2005

I should say that the inspiration for Multiple Designers Theory was Nic Tamzek's Invisible Tinkering Warrior Armies, first mooted on IIDB somewhere or other (I never can find that damned thread). ITWA is clearly a source for several potential alternative theories.

RBH

RupertG · 24 November 2005

I don't know the Invisible Tinkering Warrior Army theory, but it sounds a lot like gnostic theology. The last remaining gnostics are the Mandeans, a tiny sect who hold John the Baptist to be very holy. (They're tiny because of a few strategic errors - they believe Moses, Jesus and Mohammed to be false prophets of evil mien, which has not gone down well with their neighbours, and as they live in the area of the Iran-Iraq border... well, you get the picture).

The Mandean cosmology has everything made out of two forces, one light, one dark, and the world coming about because of the battles between the two. Man was created by the dark force, but has a light soul which escapes at death and may make it back to the light.

So if there are two creators locked in conflict - or two opposing armies of creators - that could explain a lot. Certainly has a greater explicatory power than the idea of a single designer.

Rich Palmer · 24 November 2005

The first volley of outrage over the notion that an Intelligent Deceiver lies behind the ID movement has arrived.

"Your letter in Nature 11/24/05* displayed profound ignorance of the issues regarding intelligent design, and was composed of nothing more than mockery. For a scientist, accustomed to research before pronouncements, such behavior should be shameful. Why don't you take some time to learn from your worthiest opponents before knocking down phantoms and straw men. Why don't you also do your homework on the history and philosophy of science. I dare say your satisfaction would be richer for the effort." David F. Coppedge

Response: But my dear Mr. Coppedge, I have learned much from my 'worthiest opponents' . . . I have followed their reasoning precisely. Now, about those phantoms and straw men . . .

* subscription required, or contact me for a copy.

John Wilkins · 24 November 2005

The first volley of outrage over the notion that an Intelligent Deceiver lies behind the ID movement has arrived.

And so have you. It is a mark of the highest respect that you are attacked as having caricatured the uncaricaturable.

Hmmm. Wilde made a comment that could be reused here:

The credulous attacking the credible in pursuit of the incredible?

Bob Davis · 24 November 2005

I'm going with the Big Brains theory of intellligent design today.

Dean Morrison · 24 November 2005

I see now that someone has got there before me in some senses with their Multiple Designers Theory.. which shares some similarities with my:
"Grand Unification Theory of evolution and design"? (see Comment #59749 - this thread)-
without the appeal to recyclers and reincarnationists.
I am prepared to consider jointly submitting a groundbreaking paper (shades of Darwin and Wallace?) to one of the ID journals - the peer reviews ought to be interesting enough to make the effort worthwhile.. How about it guys??

k.e. · 24 November 2005

Hi John

I've just refreshed on some of Wilde's quotes and except for a very tiny part if any of American TV culture it seems to me all contextual meaning is expurgated Totally. The Fundies see Wilde as a moral relativist, but it is them that are projecting.

Advertising is reduced to clever manipulation of peer pressure, received through a cache attached to Icons that are firmly implanted in the psyche and gazillions are spent to tell you "your are NOT cool if you don't have them".

"Don't believe OUR PRODUCT will make you sexy? , of COURSE it will!!! we spent zillions telling you and everyone else STUPID" -What is the truth?

The consequence of feeding a purely reality removed relativistic and fact free objectivity "mush to the masses" by removing meaning from language, is to cause them to have no grip on truth whatsoever because truth has been pomo-ed right out of the court. Guess what they project that too IS THIS A PATTERN ?

Visually, aurally, orally and literally. I remember an old joke "What do you call a person who only speaks one language? - an American" Well its worse, what do call a person who can't understand his own language, the natural "subjective sense" of truth and meaning behind the words, in context with time.. not the textual ink on the page, or the polar extreme of bare Fundy literalism, relativism; any meaning except a natural truth

They DO see a meaning transferred in code among the group, but it is limited to a received "The Truth from God TM"

For objectivistic literalists (people who perceive the world trough fact only and completely remove context from the text/The Word and see no more truth behind the text/The Word, just accept the text as the God given truth/Truth- shudder)

Yet they project like crazed lunatics - and parrot back quotes from Orwell without actually getting the story behind the text, the story* of why WE arrived in that "1984" the context related to personal action and the aftershock is a historical fact presented on the page with printers ink , The story, the meaning for the words in fact "the truth", (I mean) the cold hard honest to god (beautiful)truth not the Fundy "Truth from God TM" what ever that may mean because I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of any single ONE of the ID movement who would actually know what the truth was even if it hit them in the eyeTM",
*(you can imagine it and know it is a direct consequence of lying to god(note little g) Note they project that piece of crap too)

The nearest literary/artistic parallel I can think of to their minds is in Kafka, Dante, Goya

I knew hell on earth existed for some, but not that bad surely ?

These next lines are not for IDists.
NOW I see why Joyce went to such lenghts to stuff as much meaning into the text by mangling it visually,aurally,orally. Referenced to so many other works to make his meaning perfectly crystal clear, a bible in reverse so to speak. His gift to the Future of Humanity.
He did say it would keep the professors going for years.

Received Meaning is a trap we can all fall into. And just maybe he didn't want them to read it anyway, they have no idea what heaven is. ..Nice analogy for the their "bible" too
NB:Ulysses is an Aurally received tale, a sung story, A bard barfing if you like.
I suggest anyone who would like to hear (inside) the story to get an audiotape, because for me al least it is just a little too tough on the eyeballs.

k.e. · 24 November 2005

Hi John

ID analysis polemics follow

I've just refreshed on some of Wilde's quotes and except for a very tiny part if any of American TV culture it seems to me all contextual meaning is expurgated Totally. The Fundies see Wilde as a moral relativist, but it is them that are projecting.

Advertising is reduced to clever manipulation of peer pressure, received through a cache attached to Icons that are firmly implanted in the psyche and gazillions are spent to tell you "your are NOT cool if you don't have them".

"Don't believe OUR PRODUCT will make you sexy? , of COURSE it will!!! we spent zillions telling you and everyone else STUPID" -What is the truth?

The consequence of feeding a purely reality removed relativistic and fact free objectivity "mush to the masses" by removing meaning from language, is to cause them to have no grip on truth whatsoever because truth has been pomo-ed right out of the court. Guess what they project that too IS THIS A PATTERN ?

Visually, aurally, orally and literally. I remember an old joke "What do you call a person who only speaks one language? - an American" Well its worse, what do call a person who can't understand his own language, the natural "subjective sense" of truth and meaning behind the words, in context with time.. not the textual ink on the page, or the polar extreme of bare Fundy literalism, relativism; any meaning except a natural truth

They DO see a meaning transferred in code among the group, but it is limited to a received "The Truth from God TM"

For objectivistic literalists (people who perceive the world trough fact only and completely remove context from the text/The Word and see no more truth behind the text/The Word, just accept the text as the God given truth/Truth- shudder)

Yet they project like crazed lunatics - and parrot back quotes from Orwell without actually getting the story behind the text, the story* of why WE arrived in that "1984" the context related to personal action and the aftershock is a historical fact presented on the page with printers ink , The story, the meaning for the words in fact "the truth", (I mean) the cold hard honest to god (beautiful)truth not the Fundy "Truth from God TM" what ever that may mean because I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of any single ONE of the ID movement who would actually know what the truth was even if it hit them in the eye
*(you can imagine it and know it is a direct consequence of lying to god(note little g) Note they project that piece of crap too)

The nearest literary/artistic parallel I can think of to their minds is in Kafka, Dante, Goya

I knew hell on earth existed for some, but not that bad surely ?

These next lines are not for IDists.
NOW I see why Joyce went to such lenghts to stuff as much meaning into the text by mangling it visually,aurally,orally. Referenced to so many other works to make his meaning perfectly crystal clear, a bible in reverse so to speak. His gift to the Future of Humanity.
He did say it would keep the professors going for years.

Received Meaning is a trap we can all fall into. And just maybe he didn't want them to read it anyway, they have no idea what heaven is. ..Nice analogy for the Fundy "bible" too
NB:Ulysses is an Aurally received tale, a sung story, A bard barfing if you like.
I suggest anyone who would like to hear (inside) the story to get an audiotape, because for me al least it is just a little too tough on the eyeballs.

k.e. · 24 November 2005

What the fundies just don't seem to get is that society works on selective truth otherwise it would not function science does NOT and they know that and it foils their evil plan.

I know when I lie for a purpose and so do they, but they don't know what the truth is, they are so detached from it and I don't give a damn about their personal opinions, their version of "The Truth, TM.

Imagine if a kid did not listen to its parents. We would have die out overnight. The Human child is a freely programmable "god, born an agnostic and an atheist"

Tell 'em a few horror stories to keep them in line and all goes well.
That child when stepping off the safe shore of childhood on the ferry of life as a proto-adult then needs a reality adjustment "metamorphosis" to function correctly. If this does not happen you get adults believing in Santa Claus and many other plausible stories the ferry goes nowhere, no spiritual journey takes place no realization of plain everyday truth gods truth/God's Truth which are all one and the same lying is lying no matter if its done for God it is still against God..

k.e. · 24 November 2005

Intelliegnt Design I think meets all the requires of above suggestiond
except one

Dreaming of Daddy TM

FFS grow up!

RBH · 24 November 2005

Rich Palmer provided the missive from David F. Coppedge reacting to Palmer's Nature letter. I wonder if that's the David F. Coppedge of Creation Safaris and the Bible-Science Association.

RBH

k.e. · 25 November 2005

lastly

"I Believed in Santa Claus until I was 17, until some mean person told me it wasn't true- Paris Hilton"

Is she on a Mythical ferry journey through the under word to find herself and her self awareness ? Analysis of dreams and self awareness through understanding Myth and symbology and ones own psyche. AS A RELATIVE EXAMPLE- literalistic/naturalists may have problems with understanding this you are warned. http://www.enlightentainment.com/ajax.html

k.e. · 25 November 2005

slip:-
through the under word = underworld (inside the mind)
Understanding in the "subjetive sense" required for IDists

Ron Okimoto · 25 November 2005

ah_mini wrote:

Ron, that's one way of looking at it. I've seen the "devil" excuse used by a few when bad things happen (especially spats between members of church congregations). However, there is a more realistic reason why Bonsell and Buckingham saw fit to lie through their teeth. Creationists such as these believe they are fighting a war against the evil atheistic scientists. Those scientists are agents of Satan, spreading their intellectual filth to innocent children and deceiving them out of the Christian faith and into homosexuality and drug abuse. To them, the only outcome of accepting evolution is rotting in hell for all eternity. So, they simply believe that lying on the stand is the lesser of two evils. Kind of like lying to a Nazi in WW2 to protect the Jews hiding in your basement. God wouldn't frown on a liar if he was lying for Jesus? Would He?

Sure, it seems like the Discovery Institute has Luther's quote about the good lie for God plastered up on their walls, but just get them to admit that they have to stoop to such tactics. Why would God require someone to lie for him? This isn't a lie to save fellow Christians from the inquisition, or reformation or even from the Romans. These are lies about the nature of God. Just get them to admit that they have to lie about things like that. It isn't their god that would require lies to be told about him, it would be the other guy, right? Why should they have to claim that ID is a scientific theory, when they know that it doesn't make the grade? And if you claim that they are lying to themselves, whose work would that be? Guys like Meyer and Dembski that have reversed themselves on teaching ID in the public schools know that ID comes up short, so what is their excuse? Is God making them do this junk? Whose work would they be doing? You have to remember that these guys believe in satan, but they still do what they do. Ignorance and incompetence might be factors, but nearly all of them? Ron Okimoto

Fernmonkey · 25 November 2005

Stephen Elliott: of course. God is a DM.

Red Mann · 25 November 2005

k.e, I'm nominating you as the Minister of Silly Winks.

k.e. · 25 November 2005

hahahahahhahahaha

wink wink

I just noticed "through the under word " is a *little* Joycean don't you think?

now HEAR THE WORD... here is the plan (off camera ....ID V_0.7 year_old_child"The Word,TM" = NOT TRUE, The enlightenment = TRUE .....AND should be is "The Word")

k.e. · 25 November 2005

re above post

That should keep Gallieo happy and the First Gnostic Female Pope.

Who was the masked man behind the curtain in the "Big tent"

The wizard of OZ ?

k.e. · 25 November 2005

Rupert G The Mandean "mind" Model or as I like to call them sanity/insanity maintainers is very similar to ONE of the MANY Hindu creation Myths. The pattern would seem to be a direct result of the environment they were in.... how myth evolves.. to suit the needs of the group. Its all part of the same (Joycean) apple just depends how you slice it. There is a balance ...for in the Adult mind there are competing drives which if not managed can make life difficult. All religions have their successful model which *always* involves a pact with the devil/god (one and the same actually the more bipolar the more insane reaction in the followers if their view is challenged) you give something up to the deity ....but not the deity "in person" his rep. on earth Pat,Pious, Paul, Abdulla, etc in return you get a version of sanity .... do I have to go behind the curtain here ? Each person makes their own Journey of course but there were formal structures for maintaining the group "super ego" that were formulated for a long (group) life. They ere told to kids so they could recognise the signs as they grew up and get each little aha moment, a little bit like some popular culure I suppose any examples would be nice I just talking about *how* it works. See the end sentence below of the earlier link of the Greek model WHICH we probably would STILL have but for Justinian and his pale riders.

The tragedy can be understood as a call to an ethic of moderation. Yes the hero is usually committing a horrendous act, and will probably fall prey to the tragic cycle. This is a negative presentation of the true way to live. By uncovering the nature of the Greek mind, then the discovery of the role and effect of the alienation coupled with the tragic cycle, we came to the conclusion that the Greeks believed the basic nature of the universe to be chaotic, and avoiding the tragic cycle, via moderation, one could "last a long time". By taking these concepts and understandings, and comparing them to an Eastern system, we see strong structural parallels that reinforce and deepen our understanding of the Greek ideal of moderation, and the consequences that lie if one slips off the razor's edge. K.E e.g. Facism

Julie · 25 November 2005

On the subject of Lysenko, "vernalization", and famine: Lysenko was promoting crank science that appealed to a government that (a.) valued ideology over reality and (b.) was willing to suppress dissent by any means necessary. Either situation alone is bad enough; the combination was devastating. The USSR not only suffered famine, but made some of its top geneticists the victims of political purges; the prominent agricultural geneticist N.I. Vavilov died in prison -- this in 1943, in the middle of WWII, when undoubtedly the country needed all the help with its food supply that it could get. In the meantime, Lysenko got the publicity and power he undoubtedly wanted, but Soviet genetics research didn't recover from the Lysenko affair for several decades.

Failure to teach and support science has real consequences.

Registered User · 25 November 2005

David F. Coppedge

"Your letter in Nature 11/24/05* displayed profound ignorance of the issues regarding intelligent design

Wow, that is truly sad. What makes Coppedge's letter even more pathetic is that he doesn't even attempt to explain what those "issues regarding intelligent design" are that Palmer doesn't understand. I understand why Coppedge might avoid getting into those "issues" but it's a shame that he doesn't even pretend to try! Perhaps he lost his copy of the latest Discovery Institute talking points.

From Coppedge's web site.

http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_0.htm

If you are a Christian, here are some benefits you can expect from reading and studying this material:

Confidence that what you believe is true to reality.
Witness: great evidences to defend your faith.
Understanding of how our civilization came to be.
Appreciation for what we have in the Third Millennium A.D.
Inspiration from the lives of great Christians.
Joy and Wonder at the marvels of God's creation.

I love that. "Great evidences" to defend your faith. Huh??????

k.e. · 25 November 2005

yeh

Coppedge
I know you love Jesus BUT who do you love Jesus Against?

Attacking truth is the same as attacking god.

Arden Chatfield · 25 November 2005

I could say something snide (many snide things, really) about the little archetypal Scientist with his white lab coat, test tube, and beaker in the upper right hand corner of Coppedge's website...

But that would just be mean...

(But that shouldn't stop anyone else here who might wish to snark about it... :-))

Neal · 25 November 2005

OK. Someone give me an example of the empirical evidence of the evolution of a new species by natural selection.

Registered User · 25 November 2005

Someone give me an example of the empirical evidence of the evolution of a new species by natural selection.

The genome of every living organism on the planet earth.

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 25 November 2005

OK. Someone give me an example of the empirical evidence of the evolution of a new species by natural selection.

(sigh) You know, I'm not at all surprised when creationists prove themselves to be crushingly uneducated and ignorant about basic biology and evolution. But I *am* mildly surprised (and a little annoyed) when they turn out to be too stupid and uninformed to even get the basic CREATIONIST arguments straight. This is from the website of Answers in Genesis, one of the largest creationist organizations in the world: "Poorly-informed anti-creationist scoffers occasionally think they will 'floor' creation apologists with examples of 'new species forming' in nature. They are often surprised at the reaction they get from the better-informed creationists, namely that the creation model depends heavily on speciation." Let me repeat that, in case you're not bright enough to get it. Answers in Genesis says that not only does creationism itself "depend heavily on speciation", but they also say that those who argue that there are NO "new species forming in nature" are "poorly informed". Guess that means YOU, huh. By arguing to me that new species cannot evolve, you are not only demonstrating that you are completely ignorant of basic biology, but you're also demonstrating that you're too stupid and uninformed to even understand the most elementary CREATIONIST arguments. Anyway, you want some examples of observed speciation events? Sure. Here's a reading list. Get cracking. Ahearn, J. N. 1980. Evolution of behavioral reproductive isolation in a laboratory stock of Drosophila silvestris. Experientia. 36:63-64. Barton, N. H., J. S. Jones and J. Mallet. 1988. No barriers to speciation. Nature. 336:13-14. Baum, D. 1992. Phylogenetic species concepts. Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 7:1-3. Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102. Breeuwer, J. A. J. and J. H. Werren. 1990. Microorganisms associated with chromosome destruction and reproductive isolation between two insect species. Nature. 346:558-560. Budd, A. F. and B. D. Mishler. 1990. Species and evolution in clonal organisms -- a summary and discussion. Systematic Botany 15:166-171. Bullini, L. and G. Nascetti. 1990. Speciation by hybridization in phasmids and other insects. Canadian Journal of Zoology. 68:1747-1760. Butters, F. K. 1941. Hybrid Woodsias in Minnesota. Amer. Fern. J. 31:15-21. Butters, F. K. and R. M. Tryon, jr. 1948. A fertile mutant of a Woodsia hybrid. American Journal of Botany. 35:138. Brock, T. D. and M. T. Madigan. 1988. Biology of Microorganisms (5th edition). Prentice Hall, Englewood, NJ. Callaghan, C. A. 1987. Instances of observed speciation. The American Biology Teacher. 49:3436. Castenholz, R. W. 1992. Species usage, concept, and evolution in the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). Journal of Phycology 28:737-745. Clausen, J., D. D. Keck and W. M. Hiesey. 1945. Experimental studies on the nature of species. II. Plant evolution through amphiploidy and autoploidy, with examples from the Madiinae. Carnegie Institute Washington Publication, 564:1-174. Cracraft, J. 1989. Speciation and its ontology: the empirical consequences of alternative species concepts for understanding patterns and processes of differentiation. In Otte, E. and J. A. Endler [eds.] Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. pp. 28-59. Craig, T. P., J. K. Itami, W. G. Abrahamson and J. D. Horner. 1993. Behavioral evidence for host-race fromation in Eurosta solidaginis. Evolution. 47:1696-1710. Cronquist, A. 1978. Once again, what is a species? Biosystematics in agriculture. Beltsville Symposia in Agricultural Research 2:3-20. Cronquist, A. 1988. The evolution and classification of flowering plants (2nd edition). The New York Botanical Garden, Bronx, NY. Crossley, S. A. 1974. Changes in mating behavior produced by selection for ethological isolation between ebony and vestigial mutants of Drosophilia melanogaster. Evolution. 28:631-647. de Oliveira, A. K. and A. R. Cordeiro. 1980. Adaptation of Drosophila willistoni experimental populations to extreme pH medium. II. Development of incipient reproductive isolation. Heredity. 44:123-130. de Queiroz, K. and M. Donoghue. 1988. Phylogenetic systematics and the species problem. Cladistics. 4:317-338. de Queiroz, K. and M. Donoghue. 1990. Phylogenetic systematics and species revisited. Cladistics. 6:83-90. de Vries, H. 1905. Species and varieties, their origin by mutation. de Wet, J. M. J. 1971. Polyploidy and evolution in plants. Taxon. 20:29-35. del Solar, E. 1966. Sexual isolation caused by selection for positive and negative phototaxis and geotaxis in Drosophila pseudoobscura. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (US). 56:484-487. Digby, L. 1912. The cytology of Primula kewensis and of other related Primula hybrids. Ann. Bot. 26:357-388. Dobzhansky, T. 1937. Genetics and the origin of species. Columbia University Press, New York. Dobzhansky, T. 1951. Genetics and the origin of species (3rd edition). Columbia University Press, New York. Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky. 1971. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 230:289-292. Dobzhansky, T. 1972. Species of Drosophila: new excitement in an old field. Science. 177:664-669. Dodd, D. M. B. 1989. Reproductive isolation as a consequence of adaptive divergence in Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution 43:1308-1311. Dodd, D. M. B. and J. R. Powell. 1985. Founder-flush speciation: an update of experimental results with Drosophila. Evolution 39:1388-1392. Donoghue, M. J. 1985. A critique of the biological species concept and recommendations for a phylogenetic alternative. Bryologist 88:172-181. Du Rietz, G. E. 1930. The fundamental units of biological taxonomy. Svensk. Bot. Tidskr. 24:333-428. Ehrman, E. 1971. Natural selection for the origin of reproductive isolation. The American Naturalist. 105:479-483. Ehrman, E. 1973. More on natural selection for the origin of reproductive isolation. The American Naturalist. 107:318-319. Feder, J. L., C. A. Chilcote and G. L. Bush. 1988. Genetic differentiation between sympatric host races of the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:61-64. Feder, J. L. and G. L. Bush. 1989. A field test of differential host-plant usage between two sibling species of Rhagoletis pomonella fruit flies (Diptera:Tephritidae) and its consequences for sympatric models of speciation. Evolution 43:1813-1819. Frandsen, K. J. 1943. The experimental formation of Brassica juncea Czern. et Coss. Dansk. Bot. Arkiv., No. 4, 11:1-17. Frandsen, K. J. 1947. The experimental formation of Brassica napus L. var. oleifera DC and Brassica carinata Braun. Dansk. Bot. Arkiv., No. 7, 12:1-16. Galiana, A., A. Moya and F. J. Alaya. 1993. Founder-flush speciation in Drosophila pseudoobscura: a large scale experiment. Evolution. 47432-444. Gottleib, L. D. 1973. Genetic differentiation, sympatric speciation, and the origin of a diploid species of Stephanomeira. American Journal of Botany. 60: 545-553. Halliburton, R. and G. A. E. Gall. 1981. Disruptive selection and assortative mating in Tribolium castaneum. Evolution. 35:829-843. Hurd, L. E., and R. M. Eisenberg. 1975. Divergent selection for geotactic response and evolution of reproductive isolation in sympatric and allopatric populations of houseflies. The American Naturalist. 109:353-358. Karpchenko, G. D. 1927. Polyploid hybrids of Raphanus sativus L. X Brassica oleraceae L. Bull. Appl. Botany. 17:305-408. Karpchenko, G. D. 1928. Polyploid hybrids of Raphanus sativus L. X Brassica oleraceae L. Z. Indukt. Abstami-a Verenbungsi. 48:1-85. Kilias, G., S. N. Alahiotis and M. Delecanos. 1980. A multifactorial investigation of speciation theory using Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution. 34:730-737. Knight, G. R., A. Robertson and C. H. Waddington. 1956. Selection for sexual isolation within a species. Evolution. 10:14-22. Koopman, K. F. 1950. Natural selection for reproductive isolation between Drosophila pseudoobscura and Drosophila persimilis. Evolution. 4:135-148. Lee, R. E. 1989. Phycology (2nd edition) Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK Levin, D. A. 1979. The nature of plant species. Science 204:381-384. Lokki, J. and A. Saura. 1980. Polyploidy in insect evolution. In: W. H. Lewis (ed.) Polyploidy: Biological Relevance. Plenum Press, New York. Macnair, M. R. 1981. Tolerance of higher plants to toxic materials. In: J. A. Bishop and L. M. Cook (eds.). Genetic consequences of man made change. Pp.177-297. Academic Press, New York. Macnair, M. R. and P. Christie. 1983. Reproductive isolation as a pleiotropic effect of copper tolerance in Mimulus guttatus. Heredity. 50:295-302. Manhart, J. R. and R. M. McCourt. 1992. Molecular data and species concepts in the algae. Journal of Phycology. 28:730-737. Mayr, E. 1942. Systematics and the origin of species from the viewpoint of a zoologist. Columbia University Press, New York. Mayr, E. 1982. The growth of biological thought: diversity, evolution and inheritance. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA. McCourt, R. M. and R. W. Hoshaw. 1990. Noncorrespondence of breeding groups, morphology and monophyletic groups in Spirogyra (Zygnemataceae; Chlorophyta) and the application of species concepts. Systematic Botany. 15:69-78. McPheron, B. A., D. C. Smith and S. H. Berlocher. 1988. Genetic differentiation between host races of Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:64-66. Meffert, L. M. and E. H. Bryant. 1991. Mating propensity and courtship behavior in serially bottlenecked lines of the housefly. Evolution 45:293-306. Mishler, B. D. 1985. The morphological, developmental and phylogenetic basis of species concepts in the bryophytes. Bryologist. 88:207-214. Mishler, B. D. and M. J. Donoghue. 1982. Species concepts: a case for pluralism. Systematic Zoology. 31:491-503. Muntzing, A. 1932. Cytogenetic investigations on the synthetic Galeopsis tetrahit. Hereditas. 16:105-154. Nelson, G. 1989. Cladistics and evolutionary models. Cladistics. 5:275-289. Newton, W. C. F. and C. Pellew. 1929. Primula kewensis and its derivatives. J. Genetics. 20:405-467. Otte, E. and J. A. Endler (eds.). 1989. Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates. Sunderland, MA. Owenby, M. 1950. Natural hybridization and amphiploidy in the genus Tragopogon. Am. J. Bot. 37:487-499. Pasterniani, E. 1969. Selection for reproductive isolation between two populations of maize, Zea mays L. Evolution. 23:534-547. Powell, J. R. 1978. The founder-flush speciation theory: an experimental approach. Evolution. 32:465-474. Prokopy, R. J., S. R. Diehl, and S. H. Cooley. 1988. Oecologia. 76:138. Rabe, E. W. and C. H. Haufler. 1992. Incipient polyploid speciation in the maidenhair fern (Adiantum pedatum, adiantaceae)? American Journal of Botany. 79:701-707. Rice, W. R. 1985. Disruptive selection on habitat preference and the evolution of reproductive isolation: an exploratory experiment. Evolution. 39:645-646. Rice, W. R. and E. E. Hostert. 1993. Laboratory experiments on speciation: What have we learned in forty years? Evolution. 47:1637-1653. Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1988. Speciation via disruptive selection on habitat preference: experimental evidence. The American Naturalist. 131:911-917. Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1990. The evolution of reproductive isolation as a correlated character under sympatric conditions: experimental evidence. Evolution. 44:1140-1152. Ringo, J., D. Wood, R. Rockwell, and H. Dowse. 1989. An experiment testing two hypotheses of speciation. The American Naturalist. 126:642-661. Schluter, D. and L. M. Nagel. 1995. Parallel speciation by natural selection. American Naturalist. 146:292-301. Shikano, S., L. S. Luckinbill and Y. Kurihara. 1990. Changes of traits in a bacterial population associated with protozoal predation. Microbial Ecology. 20:75-84. Smith, D. C. 1988. Heritable divergence of Rhagoletis pomonella host races by seasonal asynchrony. Nature. 336:66-67. Soans, A. B., D. Pimentel and J. S. Soans. 1974. Evolution of reproductive isolation in allopatric and sympatric populations. The American Naturalist. 108:117-124. Sokal, R. R. and T. J. Crovello. 1970. The biological species concept: a critical evaluation. The American Naturalist. 104:127-153. Soltis, D. E. and P. S. Soltis. 1989. Allopolyploid speciation in Tragopogon: Insights from chloroplast DNA. American Journal of Botany. 76:1119-1124. Stuessy, T. F. 1990. Plant taxonomy. Columbia University Press, New York. Thoday, J. M. and J. B. Gibson. 1962. Isolation by disruptive selection. Nature. 193:1164-1166. Thoday, J. 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k.e. · 25 November 2005

Just think how much more LESS wonderfull the world would be if the truly stupid took it over.

Michael Balter · 26 November 2005

Just think how much more LESS wonderfull the world would be if the truly stupid took it over.

As I have argued elsewhere, simply branding ID'ers stupid is a losing strategy for winning this fight, and serves only to make evolutionists feel superior and good about themselves. For an alternate approach to dealing with ID, see this news item in Science about Steve Verhey's paper in the November 2005 issue of BioScience. Although the commentators quoted here say that this approach could not be adapted to the high school situation, I think it could with some imagination and skill: http://www.michaelbalter.com/HominidHighlights/11_26_2005|Teaching_the_intelligent_design_controversy.php

Michael Balter · 26 November 2005

I see that this link is too long for the page, if so please go to:

http://www.michaelbalter.com

Then to News, then Hominid Highlights, and the item will appear.

k.e. · 26 November 2005

Just keep religion out of the science classromm

Dean Morrison · 26 November 2005

...another possibility - God created the Intelligent Designer - who then went on to create life on earth
Who says that someone with God's powers couldn't do that?
I'd like to ask the guys at the Discovery Institute - did God create the Intelligent Designer? to see what answer they give.....
- or is the Intelligent Designer really just God himself in a lab coat?

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 26 November 2005

For an alternate approach to dealing with ID, see this news item in Science about Steve Verhey's paper in the November 2005 issue of BioScience. Although the commentators quoted here say that this approach could not be adapted to the high school situation, I think it could with some imagination and skill:

Then go out there and show us how it's done.

Ron Okimoto · 26 November 2005

Ah_mini wrote:

Ron, that's one way of looking at it. I've seen the "devil" excuse used by a few when bad things happen (especially spats between members of church congregations). However, there is a more realistic reason why Bonsell and Buckingham saw fit to lie through their teeth. Creationists such as these believe they are fighting a war against the evil atheistic scientists. Those scientists are agents of Satan, spreading their intellectual filth to innocent children and deceiving them out of the Christian faith and into homosexuality and drug abuse. To them, the only outcome of accepting evolution is rotting in hell for all eternity. So, they simply believe that lying on the stand is the lesser of two evils. Kind of like lying to a Nazi in WW2 to protect the Jews hiding in your basement. God wouldn't frown on a liar if he was lying for Jesus? Would He?

There could be creationists incompetent enough to rationalize what they are doing in this way. Kansas, Ohio, and Dover demonstrate that, but could they all be that badly off. They aren't saving anyone from the Nazis, the inquisition, reformation, or even the Romans. They are lying about their religion and the nature of God. What kind of moral example does that set for their kids? A lot of them even know that they are lying about it. If they had half a brain or any moral sense they would be wondering why they have to lie about the things that they lie about. What gets to me is that they give up on the honest track, and believe that the desception is the way to go when their religious beliefs are against the wall. That should tell them volumes about why their beliefs shouldn't be taught in the public schools. That is pretty sad. If they really had faith, they would be working to change the laws in an honest and straightforward manner. There are set means of doing that in an honest and upfront manner, but they have decided not to go the honest route. The constitution can be changed. They shouldn't need dishonest scams like ID or teach the controversy to change it. Civil disobedience is a means to challenge the law, but why sneak around the back way if you want to challenge a law. It defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do if you lie about why you are breaking the law. It is the lie that gets challenged and not what you want to challenge. If they believe that their religion should be in the public schools they should be advocating exactly what they want, not lying about it so that they can sneak it in the backdoor using some dishonest or incompetent teacher. Look at Dover. It is the dishonest ID scam that is getting challenged in court, not what they really want to teach. So they look like the liars that they are, and for what purpose? A stupid dishonest scam makes their cause look bogus. Why would God need someone to lie for him? Ron Okimoto

Ric · 26 November 2005

Pandas Thumbers didn't propose the "Multiple Designers Theory." David Hume did that long ago in his refutations of the Argument from Design. Sorry, I had to set the record straight.

N.Wells · 26 November 2005

In Russia, Lysenko was responsible for the deaths of some scientific / political adversaries, but Lysenkoism was not a cause of the huge deaths from famine so much as it was offered as a politically correct 'scientific' solution to the famines. The famines had largely already been caused by bad agricultural policies.

However, after setting Soviet genetics and agriculture back by about a generation, Lysenkoism then went on to become responsible for huge famines and related deaths in China.

For a discussion of all of this, see http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/13/t/002469.html#000000

RBH · 26 November 2005

Ric wrote
Pandas Thumbers didn't propose the "Multiple Designers Theory." David Hume did that long ago in his refutations of the Argument from Design. Sorry, I had to set the record straight.
True, but Hume didn't develop his speculation as I did here, or provide a novel research technology to begin to test the conjecture, as I did here. I still say MDT is the most detailed ID proposal on the table, with the most substantive research program directed at testing its central tenet. The results reported in the latter essay constitute more actual data directed at testing an actual ID hypothesis (as distinguished from an "evolution can't do this or that" claim) than has been reported by all the contemporary IDists (Dembski, Behe, Meyer, et alia) put together. RBH

pt · 27 November 2005

Mr. Wells, not once you repeat the following claim:

"Note that this is conciliatory, but he quietly arranged to have geneticists thrown in prison and in some cases killed"

Please, list these geneticists or issue a correction.

k.e. · 27 November 2005

pt
Let me quess "Objectivism" posing as "Objectivist History" to discredit the messenger

Keep going pt I'll gut you.

mwhealton · 27 November 2005

Dr Flank:
Thanks for the speciation bibliography above. I will be reading as fast as I can. Hope Neal does too.

Here's another article:

Wake, David B."Incipient species formation in salamanders of the Ensatina complex"
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 94, pp. 7761-7767, July 1997
Colloquium Paper
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/15/7761

Matt

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 27 November 2005

Dr Flank: Thanks for the speciation bibliography above.

Don't thank me -- it came from the talk.origins archives. Best source of scientific info on the evolution, uh, "controversy".

John Wilkins · 27 November 2005

A couple of excellent references on speciation, one with many recent examples, and the other a theoretical discussion of the math, are:

Coyne, J. A. and H. A. Orr (2004). Speciation. Sunderland, Mass., Sinauer Associates.

and

Gavrilets, S. (2004). Fitness landscapes and the origin of species. Princeton, N.J.; Oxford, England, Princeton University Press.

Coyne and Orr defend a modified version of the reproductive isolation conception of species. Gavrilets discusses how the notion of a fitness landscape causes us conceptual trouble, and how a relaistic model leads to the conclusion that speciation is more or less inevitable.

Patrick · 28 November 2005

I love you Lenny Flank.

shenda · 28 November 2005

For the record, Lysenko came after the great Soviet famine(s) which were caused primarily by collectivization. Lysenko did use his influence to have geneticists arrested, imprisoned and sometimes executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

Erasmus · 28 November 2005

I believe Steve Hurlbert came up with the Intelligent Deceiver hypothesis in that 1984 paper in ecology "Pseudoreplication and the design of ecological field experiments" or something like that. demonic intrusion, if i remember correctly.

FSM rocks da tectonic plates

Bayesian Bouffant, FCD · 28 November 2005

I believe Steve Hurlbert came up with the Intelligent Deceiver hypothesis in that 1984 paper

— Erasmus
All due respect to someone named Steve, but the Omphalos hypothesis goes back at least as far as Philip Henry Gosse's 1857 book, Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot, which you will note is still available.

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank · 28 November 2005

love you Lenny Flank.

(blush) Awww, shucks . . . .