New York Joins the Act

"Florida's "Academic Freedom" Act has died. It would have allowed students to sue teachers who stated that evolution is a fact."

Freedom through lawsuits? who exactly is free to do what here? certainly the teachers wouldn't have been free. i guess only god-bothering tub-thumper students get to be free.

pathetic.

I am only glad to see these things keep failing, for the moment anyway.

I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say "both theories"?!

If this New York bill passes, I'm moving to Scotland.

Pro-science folks need to start pressuring their congressmen to pass legislation which prevents creationist garbage and other pseudoscientific claptrap (psychic healing, UFO abduction, communicating with the dead) from being taught in public school science classrooms as science.

Suggested titles:

Education Integrity Act
Science Integrity Act
Rspect for Religion Act
Defense of Science Standards Act
First Amendment Affirmation Act
Science Patriots Act
Children's Education Defense Act

etc.

" I'm moving to Scotland"

I'm game. what's Scotland got going for it these days?

Dudes, none of these bills will pass. Nor are they intended to. most never even get out of committee. They are just sops that are tossed to the foaming fundies to keep those votes and checks coming.

Quoting from the NY bill...

"THE COMMISSIONER, SHALL PROVIDE TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO ASSIST IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF CURRICULA FOR SUCH COURSES..."

"THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OR TRUSTEES OF EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT SHALL PROVIDE APPROPRIATE TRAINING AND CURRICULUM MATERIALS..."

If this bill actually passes (unlikely), then perhaps we will finally be presented with the long awaited for ID theory and curricula. Since even the DI does not pretend that these exist and no longer advocates teaching ID in public schools, maybe the bills author should give them a call.

Damn it, thats my home state!

Thats it! This is war!

Fundy nutters out of NY now!

sick 'em stuart!

From the NY bill...

"ALL PUPILS IN GRADES KINDERGARTEN THROUGH TWELVE IN ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE STATE SHALL RECEIVE INSTRUCTION IN BOTH THEORIES OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN AND EVOLUTION."

Since when did they teach evolution in kindergarten? (I'm English, so maybe I'm missing something). And how the hell do you teach ID "science" to a five-year old?

This bill is just dumb.

Somebody get Paul Nelson to call them. He says there's no theory of ID like there's a theory of evolution.

Since when did they teach evolution in kindergarten

how the hell do you teach ID "science" to a five-year old?

how the hell do you teach ID “science” to a five-year old?

sick 'em stuart!

Grrr.. Grrr... WOOF!
Grrr... Grrr...

etc.

I'm game. what's Scotland got going for it these days?

Finally, it was pointed out that drug resistance evolution posed a possible equity conflict between present and future generations i.e. heavy use of an effective drug today may make it useless in treating future patients. Students were asked whether their duty should be mostly to present or future patients. Results are shown in Table 4. Interestingly, the evolution acceptors were more prepared to consider a duty to future generations than the rejectors, a possible example of how evolution education could influence medical practice.

In other words, the creationists were more willing to make heavy present use of an antibiotic, even knowing that the evolution of antibiotic resistance would compromise the utility of that drug for subsequent generations.

— RBH

Actually, I just want to go to Scotland for the freckled readhead women with the hot accents.

In other words, the creationists were more willing to make heavy present use of an antibiotic, even knowing that the evolution of antibiotic resistance would compromise the utility of that drug for subsequent generations.

— RBH

Scotlands great, but I'm biased because I was born and brought up here. If its freckled red headed women your after, theres quite a lot in Ireland still I believe.

But more seriously, who is putting this bill forwards and why do I find this bit a bit disturbing:

"SUCH INSTRUCTION SHALL BE PROVIDED BY OR UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF REGULAR CLASSROOM TEACHERS PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH INSTRUCTION MAY BE PROVIDED BY ANY OTHER AGENCY, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE."

Any other agency public or private? How does that work? Does that mean there will be ID outreach teachers coming into the school?

A bill has been introduced in New York that would require "all pupils in grades kindergarten through twelve in all public schools in the state [to] receive instruction in both theories of intelligent design and evolution."

— Reed Cartwright

Well. I finally get to write letters to MY congress critter. I don't think I can muster the vitriol this deserves though, since I am registered to vote in one of the most liberal districts of NY City. I will still drop a line though, in addition to getting up a petition from people in my department.

Chris

Oh, Stuart, I like "fundy nutters." Will use it often and credit you.

"SUCH INSTRUCTION SHALL BE PROVIDED BY OR UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF REGULAR CLASSROOM TEACHERS PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH INSTRUCTION MAY BE PROVIDED BY ANY OTHER AGENCY, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE." Any other agency public or private? How does that work? Does that mean there will be ID outreach teachers coming into the school?

— guthrie

"Oh, Stuart, I like "fundy nutters." Will use it often and credit you."

lol. In an open democracy forum, someone from the UK labeled them:

"god-bothering tub-thumpers".

I actually rather like that one.

"I will still drop a line though, in addition to getting up a petition from people in my department."

sounds like a great idea to me. kudos.

"In other words, the creationists were more willing to make heavy present use of an antibiotic, even knowing that the evolution of antibiotic resistance would compromise the utility of that drug for subsequent generations."

well, this is at the crux of the culture wars, yes?

I keep wondering if there is some genetic component to this behavior, as suggested by the article posted a couple of months ago here.

will evolutionary theory end up being the thing that shows why fundies behave as they do? Now THAT would be some serious irony.

will evolutionary theory end up being the thing that shows why fundies behave as they do?

Nit-picking correction: Koko the gorilla is a she. :)

Ahem. You could ask Karl Pribram what the stakes are in upsetting Koko. He's missing the distal end of, IIRC, his right index finger.

Anyway back to the original thread.

Does anyone have a concept of what a lesson plan for teaching ID would look like? I suppose you could eke out some extra time bashing evolution. What specifically are you going to cover about ID in classes where this is the topic?

A task teachers have is to provide clear objectives of what students need to learn. Does anyone have a concept of what the learning objectives are for a class in ID?

It seems to me this will be very thin.

A task teachers have is to provide clear objectives of what students need to learn. Does anyone have a concept of what the learning objectives are for a class in ID?

"What specifically are you going to cover about ID in classes where this is the topic?"

ask Salvador Cordova; he evidently has an entire class devoted to teaching ID at the college level.

Primary school students and secondary school students don't decide what good science is and what is not. However the academia sure does. That's why Panda's Thumb must pay more attention to ensuring that intelligent design isn't taught at reputable universities. According to Bill Dembski some pro ID student's tried to institute a physics course in ID at Berkeley university, thankfully they failed.

However something similar is happening at Virginia University and Dembski, or rather one of his correspondent's seems think it's got a real chance of happening. IDEA clubs are replicating at a rate of knots and in some of the red state's a significant number of biology professor's are joining, even at fairly reputable universities.

Eugene Scott doesn't seem to mind if ID is taught at university, but I do. The number of undergraduate's and even postgraduate's belonging to IDEA club's are enormous, and today's undergraduate's are tomorrow's tenured professors. If a significant portion of the academic community came to accept ID then you would not even be able to blink before evolution was being taught as just another "theory" in schools. Why then is Panda's Thumb paying so little attention to fighting potential ID courses at university?

You're right. Eugene 'Scott doe'sn't seem to mind if ID is taught at univer'sity, but I do. The number of undergraduate's and even po'stgraduate's belonging to IDEA club's are enormou's, and today's undergraduate's are tomorrow's tenured profe's'sor's.

steve, you are one sarcastic mofo.

reputable universities should not be teaching ID science in a required science course, that is for sure.

are there any such public universities?

on the other hand, i know there are teachers who go out of their way to trash "id theory" and peddlers like Dembski and his ilk in required science courses in public universities.

so we got that going for us.

no caps. no apostrophes. no mistakes. ;)

Well yeah, I'm annoying, but I don't like it when pro-science arguments are made with really bad writing. Capitalized words and apostrophes for plurals just look terrible. Intelligent people who don't know anything about evolution, and maybe are on the fence, are probably unconsciously persuaded by the better writing and logic of evolutionist writing as compared to creationist stuff.

That's a very good argument for good writing skills.

ChEEr'S

I'm with you, Stuart. This bill may never make it out of committee - I certainly hope it doesn't - but this is my state too and I'll be damned if I'm going to take this sort of nonsense lying down.

For anyone who's interested, here are the members of the New York state legislature education committee, with links to contact information:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=mem&id=12

This is the guy who proposed this bill:

http://www.ppmhv.org/politics/pop/hooker.html

I'm working on a letter now, and I'm going to make some calls tomorrow.

geez. hooker is a bit right of a 90 degree turn! how on earth did he get on the assembly to begin with?

Though it is acceptable, according to certain style manuals, to apostrophe acronyms, btw. "Several UFO's were spotted..." etc. Not sure how you'd do the plural posessive, though. UFO's'? UFOs'? And how you'd deal with -S ending acronyms with plural posessiveness I haven't the slightest.

"Today, several APS'es' members signed a poll..."

;-)

Comment #29412 Posted by Harq al-Ada on May 11, 2005 10:52 AM (e) (s) Actually, I just want to go to Scotland for the freckled readhead women with the hot accents.

— Harq al-Ada

Comment #29434 Posted by Danial Hocson on May 11, 2005 03:13 PM (e) (s) Nit-picking correction: Koko the gorilla is a she. :)

— Danial Hocson

test for dbl post

Though it is acceptable, according to certain style manuals, to apostrophe acronyms, btw. "Several UFO's were spotted . . . "

— steve

I always say acronym when I mean synonym, and vice versa.

The other irritating thing is the amazing number of people who can't be bothered to look up "acronym" and find out what it means.

Kids' book on evolution stirs censorship debate in Monticello ... With its lavish illustrations of colorful, cuddly critters, "Our Family Tree" looks like the kind of book kids keep by their bedside to read again and again. But when its St. Paul author, Lisa Westberg Peters, planned to talk about the book in classroom appearances today and Friday at a Monticello, Minn., elementary school, educators got cold feet. "Our Family Tree" focuses on evolution, the scientific explanation for human origins that some believe contradicts biblical teachings. Peters' appearances, which were to focus on helping kids learn how to write, were canceled. "It's a cute book. There's nothing wrong with it. We just don't need that kind of debate," said Brad Sanderson, principal at Pinewood Elementary. ...

Huh. Can't say I've ever heard anyone misuse the word acronym. What do they use it to mean?

— steve

I smell toast ...

"UFO" is not an acronym.

What, you don't pronounce it "ooh-pho?"

Well. I stared circulating my petition to people in my department. The vast majority reacted as expected: "They did this in NEW YORK???" We have a unified Science department here- it includes bio, chem, physics, and....engineering. Four people did not sign the petition right away. Three wanted to read over it thoroughly. One of those (a biologist) expressed some misgivings about it. The two others that wanted to read it were a chemist and an engineer. The only person who categorically refused to sign it, saying he supported the bill, was an engineer.

Sounds like another Salem Conjecture data point to me.

Re ""UFO" is not an acronym."
Huh? It's the first letters from the phrase "Unidentified Flying Object".

On the other hand, what would "radar" stand for? IIRC, it's shorthand for "Radio Detection and Ranging", which means it's not an acronym.

Re "which means it's not an acronym."
Huh. Never thought of that.

On the other hand, what would "radar" stand for? IIRC, it's shorthand for "Radio Detection and Ranging", which means it's not an acronym.

— Aureola Nominee

A word formed from the initial letters of a name, such as WAC for Women's Army Corps, or by combining initial letters or parts of a series of words, such as radar for radio detecting and ranging.

so...

a UFO is not an acronym, but an abbreviation?

or more precisely, a UFO is an initialism.

The difference is that an acronym is pronounced as if it were a word rather than just a series of individual letters.

so, FYI is an initialism, FYI. :p

thanks Jim.

I never would have remembered the term initialism unless you had posted.

test(ignore)

Really, though, while formally initialisms are distinct from acronyms, I think it's fair to say that in common usage, the latter word is coming to include the former. Compared to other ways the English language has evoloved in recent years, this is a fairly innocuous change.

Really, though, while formally initialisms are distinct from acronyms, I think it's fair to say that in common usage, the latter word is coming to include the former. Compared to other ways the English language has evoloved in recent years, this is a fairly innocuous change.

— Randall Wald

Catherine writes "Oh, Stuart, I like "fundy nutters." Will use it often and credit you."

Oh thats OK, Catherine. No need to credit me.. besides I get enough "fan" mail from creationists in Hawaii as it is.

I forgot to come back to this thread. UFO is not an acronym because of how it's pronounced? You expect anyone to follow that? What a lost cause.

UFO is an acronym. Leave me alone and get back to whining about the disappearance of 'thine' and 'hast'.

or if you want to address a meaningful language issue, start writing letters to newscaster morons who say 'begs the question' when they mean 'raises the question'. That's a language problem with some actual substance.

Steve, in case you don't know this and/or are not joking,

In the US we pronounce "UFO" as an acronym, "yu-eff-oh". In England, it is pronounced as a word, "yu-foh." Sort of like the difference between UGA the school and Uga the mascot.

ufo is also pronounced as a word within the word mufon. And it's in Acronym Finder. Why did I think I was joking? I was just responding to Jim Wynne's tedious claim that ufo is not an acronym.

That should be "Why did you think I was joking?"

This really is the first time I heard the word "initialism" - whaddayaknow, you can learn new stuff on Panda's Thumb.
So, is

I find
Nit-picking
In regard
To
Initials'
Application to
Lexicon
Innovation
Supremely
Mind-numbing

an acronym?
;-)

ufo is also pronounced as a word within the word mufon. And it's in Acronym Finder. acronym.

— steve

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

— Lewis Carroll

lol. very witty, andrea.

and, er, no. because you initialized two-word constructions instead of single word phrases.

initializing mind-numbing as "M" is ok, but not initializing I find as "I".

:p

this is getting pythonesque...