Dembski's continuing contradictions

I'm afraid that William Dembski does not rank high among those I regard as insightful critics.

--Charles Darwin

For those who read the published reviews and critiques of Dembski's work, check out how often my name appears in the citations or acknowledgements. I think that these people find my views insightful, and I'm pleased that my arguments and comments have helped, in some small way, those critics in their work.

The Trotter Prize? The one sponsored by the creationist, Ide Trotter?

Isn't that an outlet for creationist papers?

increase awareness of the rapid advances in the physical, biological and information sciences and to promote dialogue within university communities and across disciplines regarding the overarching implications.

Thanks, PvM, for standing up for me (and Wesley). Unlike Bill Dembski who does not shy away from praising his own article as "admirable," I have no intention to judge my own writing, leaving this task to others. Therefore I naturally will leave without reply Dembski's attempt at insult by characterizing my (and Wesley's) critique as "not insightful." I have more reasons to do so because Dembski's lack of consistency is notorious, and his habit of dodging answering critical comments is too well documented, so his claim that our critique is not insightful enough to deserve his reply is quite probably just a display of his limited ability to come up with reasonable counter-arguments to the essence of our critique. Either he does not comprehend the gist of our critique, or, if he does, perhaps he simply can't figure out a reply in a meaningful way. If so, it is an explanation of why he arrogantly resorts to a convenient method of dodging answering the critique under the preposterous pretext that our critique is not good enough for such a great mathematician and philosopher as the Isaac Newton of information theory is claimed to be by his obsequious co-travelers.

What, you mean Slavador is trying to divert attention away from the topic of a thread with irrelevant posts?

I'm shocked!

Evidently Francis Crick and Charles Townes are past recipients of this award. I've searched the Texas A&M site for any reference to Demski and the Trotter lecture and haven't found anything. The only reference to this comes from Dembski's own website. Anyway, this is disturbing to say the least. What are they thinking? Are the faculty at A&M even aware of this? Dembski's teaches at a Baptist seminary for god's sake! Oh, I forgot, it's Texas...

"Oh, I forgot, it's Texas...."

That's humorous. Likely the words of a Vermont or Ohio resident. Are you seriously suggesting that Texas A&M is not a top tier research institution? How about UT Austin or Rice? Ever heard of the micro-chip. It was invented in Dallas (though sadly, so were breast implants and MDMA). Perhaps you've mistaken the greatest state in the Union for Tennessee.

No, California has far too many beaches to be mistaken for Tennessee....

I've seen no indication that Elsberry or Perakh could even state the gist of it in plain English.

— Dembski

I'm a native Texan, a life-long resident except for military service, and hope I can speak with some experience and objectivity when I say that Texas A&M is not a top tier research institution. It is influenced by politics and money even more than most institutions in the state, and its biggest claims to fame, scientifically, is the purple jalapeno pepper, and the capsaicinless jalapeno pepper. It has also engineered a few other purple vegetables, purple being one of the school colors. Texas unfortunately ranks behind even Mississippi in school quality, in the amount spent per student for public education, and in the percentage of high school graduates. We're so mired in ignorance that we're blinded by hubris. Any state ignorant enough to elect George W. Bush governor has no business calling itself great. And if A&M plans to award a prize to Dembski, then QED.

It did not say that Dembski was getting an award, just that he was speaking at a "lecture series." It soulnds like that they have a bunch of people speak at the time of the award and Dembski was chosen, for who knows what reason, to speak.

I am also a native and life-long Texan and recognize a charlatan when I see one.

I would have you know that (1) the primary and secondary schools of any large state are, as a whole, inferior to those of smaller states, (2) "public education" is conveniently vague; the statistics you allude to apply to primary and secondary schools, and not to institutions of higher learning, and (3) and the school color of the Aggies is maroon (not to be confused with the equivocal noun of which I'm sure you are familiar).

As for your silly comments about jalepenos: Texas A&M spends around $400 million a year on research and is consistently ranked a "top tier" research institution by the National Science Foundation - http://vpr.tamu.edu/remarkable/index.html

God did it; now that we have our conclusion let's jiggle the numbers until our argument appears to support that conclusion.

Excepting the part about "appears," what is objectionable about that? Science usually begins with a theoretical claim, i.e., a conclusion, and then attempts to justify that claim empirically.

Future Event: On April 4, 2005, Dr. William Dembski will receive this year's prestigious Trotter Prize and give a lecture associated with that award. The event will be at Texas A&M University in College Station. Previous winners have included Drs. Paul Davies, Robert Shapiro, Alan Guth, John Polkinghorne, and Nobel laureates Francis Crick and Charles Townes.

Previous winners have included Drs. Paul Davies, Robert Shapiro, Alan Guth, John Polkinghorne, and Nobel laureates Francis Crick and Charles Townes.

Consider, for instance, that Tom English on this board at least engaged the mathematics in my article. I've seen no indication that Elsberry or Perakh could even state the gist of it in plain English.

I repeat - It's Texas ;-)

And you were close Michael - I'm from Massachusetts, home of Harvard and MIT.

Oops, thanks for the correction.

Whatever else might be said of Texas A&M University, in 1988 they decided to obtain the best faculty in marine mammal science that money could buy. And they did. Because of that, I did my doctoral research at A&M. There are just a few programs in the country that do marine mammal research, and A&M's program covered several aspects of that research. On that criterion, Texas A&M University is very much a top-tier research institution. That doesn't mean that everything that happens on campus partakes of the same quality.

Excepting the part about "appears," what is objectionable about that? Science usually begins with a theoretical claim, i.e., a conclusion, and then attempts to justify that claim empirically.

Sometimes science reaches a conclusion after demonstrating the failure of all other alternatives. At least that is what I have done in reaching the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. Sorry if I didn't follow the rules. Neither did William Bateson, Pierre Grasse, Richard B. Goldschmidt, Otto Schindewolf or any other scientist so out of touch with reality as to fall for the Darwinina fairy tale. There have been many of us. Trust me.

John A. Davison

No Free Lunch - Except at Texas A&M University.

In addition to the Trotter Lecture, ole Bill will be preaching to the Department of Computer Science.

http://www.cs.tamu.edu/research/seminars/abstracts/681_2004-2005

Maybe all those Aggie jokes are true, after all.

btw: I have found no indication that Dembski has received any prize; he's just giving a lecture in the endowed series.

On April 4, 2005, Dr. William Dembski will receive this year's prestigious Trotter Prize and give a lecture associated with that award. The event will be at Texas A&M University in College Station. Previous winners have included Drs. Paul Davies, Robert Shapiro, Alan Guth, John Polkinghorne, and Nobel laureates Francis Crick and Charles Townes.

On April 4, 2005, Dr. William Dembski will receive this year's prestigious Trotter Prize and give a lecture associated with that award. The event will be at Texas A&M University in College Station. Previous winners have included Drs. Paul Davies, Robert Shapiro, Alan Guth, John Polkinghorne, and Nobel laureates Francis Crick and Charles Townes.

Hello All,

I read the blurb on the creationist website, but I was unable to find any reference to it at TAMU, the Texas A&M website. The lecture series is endowed and several lectures are given each year. Trotter has also been hosting debates between creationists and sane people. I found no reference that Dumbski received the Prize, rather he was granted a debate. Still, the creationists have no ethical standard and I find it quite astounding the Dumbski would receive any prize other than Loser of the Year.

My personal opinion, including bile.

Regards,
Dr. Bill Farrell

To call the Trotter award prestigious is a bit premature. The Trotter family enmphasize their affiliation with a Baptist church (which is Dembski's turf) in whose activities they are very active. So is Dembski. To give this prize a veneer of alleged prestige, they first awarded it to a few real scientists such as Crick and Townes (the latter was once a co-inventor of laser, but lately has been engaged in philosophical exercise aimed at reconciling science and religion). This year they finally partially shed off the pretense and give a half of it to their evangeical co-traveler Dembski (the other half went to Kauffman who, unlike Dembski, has produced a meaningful output). There is little doubt the ID crowd will hail this award as a sign of the recognition of ID by mainstream science (which it is not by a long shot). So far neither Dembski nor anybody else in the ID crowd has produced any contributiion to any field of science (or mathematics) based on ID "theory." By awarding the prize to Dembski, they have simply undermined any respect this prize may otherwise eventually win in the mainstream scientific community.

any field of science (or mathematics)

Mathematics is the "language" of science. And when devising a new mathematical system, picking the axioms can be a somewhat empirical process. ;)

Henry

John A. Davison,

You said, "Sometimes science reaches a conclusion after demonstrating the failure of all other alternatives. At least that is what I have done..."

This deductive approach was advocated by Sherlock Holmes, but I'm used to thinking of science as primarily an _inductive_ enterprise. Is there another example of an accepted scientific conclusion reached in this way?

Re: Comment by Stan Gosnell (No 22013). I highly respect and love mathematics (though I am a physicist rather then a mathematician) and the language I used in no way meant to disparage mathematics. Whether or not it is science depends of course on the adopted definition of science. At the university where I am an emeritus, the School of which our department is a part is named College of Natural Sciences & Mathematics. My view of science and its relation to mathematics is described in detail, for example, at http://www.talkreason.org/articles/good_bad_science.cfm as well as in my book Unintelligent Design (in part 3).

Thanks, PvM, for standing up for me (and Wesley).

— Mark Perakh

My science has always been just following my nose. So far it has not failed me.

John A. Davison

Some use logic, some may use their sense of smell when it comes to science. So far little Nosivad has contributed suggests that his 'science' extends beyond his sense of smell. If Nosivad is interested in actually contributing to this thread, he is invited to do so, otherwise he may consider a more appropriate venue.

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If it wasn't made sufficiently clear by the emoticon, my comment in #22013 was made tongue-in-cheek.

Ah much better... Or should I have said "h mch bttr" :-)
Salty, perhaps you want to try to contribute to this forum in a meaningful manner?

You are a class act PvM. Exposing you and your motives was a very important contribution to this forum. I see you or someone else has seen to it that is impossible. Thank you for the perfect demonstration of the total inadequacy of Darwimpian evolutionary mysticism. Now butcher this one too.

Salty, you insult me by suggesting that I would butcher your latest 'contribution' beyond what you have done to it.
"Darwimpian", did you really come up with this term yourself? Or was it from one of your 'scientific' papers ;-)

... and no, I do not use that sort of description in my published scientific papers, only when I am dealing with intractable atheist chance-worshipping Darwimpians like yourself.

I see Pim had to delete most of my post.

Pim

If you are a Christian then why are you a Darwinian? What role does a God have in your evolutionary dogma?

You pontificate "Impress us or at least surprise us."

I love the revealing use of the collective imperial us. That is characteristic of groupthinks.

I would love to impress you or even surprise you but you keep deleting or garbling my comments. That is nothing but cowardice.

I am not your dear friend. I am your mortal enemy.

John A. Davison

I am not your dear friend. I am your mortal enemy. John A. Davison

like being savaged by a dead sheep

I see Pim had to delete most of my post.

If you are a Christian then why are you a Darwinian? What role does a God have in your evolutionary dogma?

You pontificate "Impress us or at least surprise us." I love the revealing use of the collective imperial us. That is characteristic of groupthinks.

I would love to impress you or even surprise you but you keep deleting or garbling my comments. That is nothing but cowardice.

I am not your dear friend. I am your mortal enemy.

Pim accuses me of innacuracy. Present those inaccuracies and show what is wrong with them.

— Nosy

I do not present arguments. I present facts which demand conclusions and I have reached them.

— Nosivad

There is no ID "movement." That is a contrived bit of Darwimpian chicanery designed to denigrate that which is undeniable.

— Salty

I guess the only question I have is who moved me? Was it PvM? Is that a secret shared only by an inner circle here at Panda's Thumb?

Yes, I am indeed saying that God could not have used Darwinian mechanisms. That is exactly what I have been saying for years. And yes, ID is undeniable or more accurately was undeniable. Otherwise nothing could have happened. There is no reason to postulate any intervention once the evolutionary sequence was set in motion any more than there is to explain what happens when the sperm and egg pronuclei fuse to initiate the development of a human being. From that moment forth just about everything has already been determined.

I still await any demonstration that the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis is in any way incompatible with the facts as revealed by paleontology, taxonomy, molecular biology, developmental biology, animal and plant husbandry and the fossil record, that final and undisputed proof that evolution has indeed occurred.

Will this post also be automatically sent to the Bathroom Wall?

"Everything is determined... by forces over which we have no control."
Albert Einstein

John A. Davison

I see that Pim uses three different names in referring to me, Nosy, Nosivad and Salty. I would like to hear why Pim finds that necesary. Come on Pim, explain yourself if you can without sounding like an intellectual bogot that is.

John A. Davison

I thank Nosy for considering me to be an intellectual, although I am still trying to figure out what exactly is meant by 'bogot'.

Yes, I am indeed saying that God could not have used Darwinian mechanisms.

And yes, ID is undeniable or more accurately was undeniable.

Suggestion:

"bogot" = robotic bigot (or bigoted robot), i.e. someone who mechanically repeats again and again the same few sentences, without ever considering the possibility of not being perfectly right in any way or form.

No, wait: that would be JAD.

Pardon the typo. It was bigot of course. How else can one characterize someone who rejects out of hand any view which varies a micron from their own.

I repeat God could not have used Darwinian mechanisms because Darwinian (mutation/selection) mechanisms are a fantasy with no demonstrable substance.

Davison,
I don't get it - all this arguing for an opinion you know most won't accept, but no summary on here of points in your paper that could well be interesting to other biologists? Imo your paper has too much rhetoric, too much discussion of the motives of those who disagree with you, and there's a promise in the introduction to define technical terms as they come up but I saw no follow through on that promise. There's also overuse of the term "Darwinist", which in my experience means the part of evolution theory that a particular speaker does not accept, i.e., it's meaning is different for speakers having different POV's.

The part that I think could be used to actually explain something: Sometimes a in bisexual species an individual might revert to asexual reproduction, producing a species (or group of them) in this mode. If successful some portion of that species might re-evolve bisexual reproduction, using methods different from that of the ancestor. This if true could explain how birds and mammals wound up with way different ways of producing and distributing sperm, if the respective predecessor species of one or both of those clades went through one of those asexual phases.

That part doesn't require exceptions to any rules as I understand them, and it explains something. That's in contrast to the front loading concept, which does require breaking (or finding ways around) the rules (i.e., sections of DNA that somehow stays put instead of mutating).

But, I don't agree that chromosomal rearrangements necessarily imply a round of the semi-meiotic evolution. Some such rearrangements would no doubt prevent having descendants, but it doesn't seem likely to me that all possible rearrangements would do that. Is the male chromosome homologous across the mammal class, or some large portion of it? If so that would seem to me evidence against a semi-meiotic occurrence inside that clade.

Anyway, looking at the material paraphrased in my 2nd paragraph, seems like if you'd started with a summary of that material instead of jumping to conclusions that it's unlikely anybody would agree with, seems like an actual conversation might've come about. Or do you just enjoy arguing?

Henry

Henry J

Why should I summarize material that is a touch of your mouse away?

I don't particularly like arguing but when one is greeted with instant insult and denigration as has been the case here, EvC and brainstorms, is it any wonder I might repond in kind? When carefully crafted posts are subjected to disembowelment by certain members of this forum, what can you expect from me? At ARN they just pretend I don't exist which is the most revealing position of all. That is what the establishment has always done with their critics from Mivart right to the present. I've asked for "beneficial mutations" there too, but to no avail.

Vorontsov claimed the males were not homologous generally. I refer you to my Manifesto for the details. I am inclined to agree.

I have gone further by suggesting that the primary purpose of obligatory sexual reproduction is to stop evolution, bring it to a halt and thereby ensure ultimate extinction. If that were not the case there could have been no evolution because organisms would have just gone right on gradually changing in response to a changing environment. Without rampant extinction there could have been no evolution and all we would have would be slightly modified versions of ancient organisms roaming the earth. Such is clearly not the case.

Accordingly, I am convinced that sexual reproduction is anti-evolutionary. This immediately explains to me, if to no one else, why we see no replacements appearing for the thousands of species that are disappearing annually. In short, all tangible evidence indicates that macroevolution is finished and has been for a very long time just as Robert Broom, Julian Huxley, Pierre Grasse and myself have insisted. It falls on deaf Darwinian ears. They literally will not hear of it. Like nearly all white cats they are deaf and we are dealing here with congenital problems that cannot be remedied by rational discussion. I am deadly serious. There is no other explanation and Einstein said as much long before me as I have posted.

Extinction is the phylogenetic counterpart of ontogenetic death. Once ontogeny is accepted as a model for evolution, everything will fall in place including the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. Both ontogeny and phylogeny have occurred independent of the environment in which they have taken place, driven by internal forces about which virtually nothing is known except that they must have been involved. There is no need to invoke any supernatural elements because everything in the world, past and present, is by definition natural or it wouldn't have existed.

It is a mistake to regard semi-meiosis as a form of purely asexual reproduction as well. The first meiotic division is preceded by crossing over which is followed by the random segregration of dyads (sister strands). These generate an enormous and unlimited amount of diversity which has been demonstrated in frogs where semi-meiosis has been tested experimentally. Again I refer you to the Manifesto for details. The semi-meiotically produced progeny of a single female frog are all genetically different as proved by the fact that they cannot accept skin transplants from one another nor from their mother because none of them have all of her genes. The common mother however can accept skin transplants from any of her progeny because none of them have any genes that are not hers.

Also the degree of locus heterozygosity that can be generated semi-meiotically is, in some instances, higher than the theoretical limit of 50% achievable through sexual reproduction. I published those findings in the Journal of Heredity back in the nineteen sixties.

I assume that when a published scientist enters a discussion that his audience would first read his works and then ask pertinent questions which he could answer. That has never been my experience here or elsehwere. Instead, I have been incarcerated in Boot Camp at EvC, twice evicted from brainstorms without explanation, had my posts garbled and deleted here at Panda's Thumb and many of those that have not been deleted have been sent to the Bathroom Wall from which I cannot respond. Now these are not paranoid fantasies as they are documented facts. They are transparent demonstrations that it is impossible to communicate effectively with ideologues.

Darwinism is not science. It is a faith-based religion, completely blind to the realites of the experimental laboratory, hundreds of years of human experience and the undeniable testimony of the fossil record. It is a scandal and a hoax. Fortunately it is not much longer for this world and I am delighted to be able to contribute to its certain demise.

I fully expect this post also to be relegated to the oblivion of the Bathroom Wall. That is if it isn't garbled or out and out deleted.

John A. Davison

Like nearly all white cats they are deaf and we are dealing here with congenital problems that cannot be remedied by rational discussion.

— JAD

Why should I summarize material that is a touch of your mouse away?

Like nearly all white cats they are deaf and we are dealing here with congenital problems that cannot be remedied by rational discussion. I am deadly serious. There is no other explanation and Einstein said as much long before me as I have posted.

I do not whine. I attack sockpuppets like yourself with all the vigor I can muster. A Christian Darwinian indeed. What a travesty. Do you think I was born yesterday? I reap nothing because my science goes unrecognized exactly as did that of the many of my predecessors on which it is so firmly based. You Godless, aimless, random happy, mutation intoxicated dreamers don't have clue about the great mystery of evolution and you don't even have a clue that you don't have a clue. You are victims of exactly the essence of the prescribed evolutionary hypothesis. You are living examples that there is no such thing as free will. You are victims of your own genetic fate. Certain others of us have had better luck with our genetic heritage.

I am no martyr. I am a warrior bent on the destruction of that force of intellectual evil known far and wide as Darwinism, a cult of chance worshippers who, obviously genetically impaired, cannot hear Einstein's music of the spheres. You are one of its most perfect representatives.

I am not your friend. I regard you as one of the most intractable and virulent of my intellectual enemies.

If you or anyone else thinks that I am going to recreate my publications for your consumption here ar Panda's Thumb you are out of what little mind you may actually still retain. What the hell do you think journals are for? Furthermore, nearly all my papers are freely available as online versions anyway a touch of your helpless little mouse away. Where may I find Pim's contributions to the evolutionary literature or does he even have any?
Ill bet he doesn't. Most pontificators don't. They are too busy denigrating others to take the time to publish anything of their own which would obviously just be more Darwinian pablum anyway.

John A. Davison

Its nice to note that Darwin was right about something. Incidentally, I never said anything about blue-eyed cats, just pure white ones and I stick with the one thing about which Darwin was correct. What I said was that most white cats are deaf. So are purebred Darwinians for the same reason. They are born that way. So are the Bible thumpers. Both factions are living proof of the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. So much for free will and rational discussion.

How do you like them apples?

John A. Davison

Re "Why should I summarize material that is a touch of your mouse away?"
Because you are presumably trying to defend your position, and actually giving ones argument is typically the way to, you know, give ones argument? Think about it.

Re "If that were not the case there could have been no evolution because organisms would have just gone right on gradually changing in response to a changing environment."
That takes both time and resources. Others here have referred to articles about ongoing evolution; ignoring that won't make it go away. Evolution following major extinctions also requires that formerly tied up resources be available, which is not the case in the current series of extinctions.

Re "I am convinced that sexual reproduction is anti-evolutionary."
Well, I'm not, and I see no sign that anybody else around here is, either. (Which I guess won't matter to you since you regard anybody who disagrees with you as either stupid or deluded. A viewpoint that tends to put a damper on conversation.)

Re "I assume that when a published scientist enters a discussion that his audience would first read his works and then ask pertinent questions which he could answer. That has never been my experience here or elsehwere."
So why continue to hold an assumption that has been contradicted by evidence? Isn't that what you accuse "Darwinists" of doing?

Re "Darwinism is not science. It is a faith-based religion, "
I'm inclined to say "false" and "false", except that for the first assertion, the term "Darwinism" apparently just means whatever you want it to. Part of your manifesto seemed to imply that "Darwinists" are certain that sexual reproduction had been continuous since at least the beginning of vertebrates as a group. I'd never really thought about that point, but I see no reason to think that biologists as a group were utterly convinced of said continuity.

Henry

Although totally off-topic, I will preserve Nosivad's latest rant for posterity. Of course that the posting has a date of April 1, is quite ironic.
On the one hand Davison whines that he is not allowed to present his arguments and on the other hand he refuses to present any of his arguments, effectively reducing his contributions to some meaningless whining about atheism, dogmatic Darwimpians and so on.

What a pitty...

And while JAD considers me to be his 'enemy' I consider him to be my friend as his 'comments' and 'arguments' help the 'cause' :-)

Until Nosy will contribute something worthwile I will be dumping his comments to where they truly belong.

Dumped some off topic comments to the bathroom wall